Bad voltage regulator

[Dwd14329]

(quoted from post at 10:47:02 12/14/23)

(quoted from post at 14:14:35 12/14/23)
Been working on this tractor every day and the only thing I can't confirm or check is the ignition coil. It's worth replacing at this point.

go for it. this is an occasion when the saying "don't replace anything until you can prove it's bad" fails to acknowledge that we can't necessarily prove certain things to be bad.

you can't prove it's bad, but you have good reason to think so at this point. if your choices are to risk < $20 or let it sit unused forever, i know what my choice would be

Thanks HFJ, can always count on your support!

 

[Dwd14329]

(quoted from post at 10:29:50 12/12/23) A lot about the solenoid might depend on if the wiring is original configuration or if during the 12v conversion modifications took place. The solenoid should have power and really shouldn't be your problem if the tractor turns over OK.
Did you get the spark tester and test spark? Did you hook up a voltmeter and test voltage?

This post was edited by Eman85 on 12/12/2023 at 09:32 am.

Eman

Let me back up and provide you with the symptoms again and maybe you can help me isolate the issue. After it started getting cold out I would periodically go out and start the tractor, warm it up and make sure it was ready for snow removal. The first issue was it fired right up then after approx 30 seconds it would start missfiring to the point it would die. I tried choking and revving engine but it didn't correct missfiring. After about another 30 seconds it would smooth out again, I could Rev it and it would idle but then went back to missfiring. Now it misfires at all times after starting it up. If I Rev it, I'll get backfire through exhaust and smell fuel. Plugs foul with dry carbon each time I try running it and troubleshooting. I clean or replace with new ones each time I start troubleshooting.

What I've done: I cleaned out tank and filters, replaced carb, adjusted fuel/air mix and rebuilt 3 times thinking I had a fuel issue. It made no difference in performance. I have plenty of fuel flow to and through carb. So I eliminated fuel as a cause. I jumped out key switch and resistor block, no change. I replaced coil no change. I removed distributer, cap was dry, nothing observed except for a small hole near the contact point on top of distributer cap where coil tab contacts cap. Not the spring, the tab connection. Point cap was good, .015, shaft and lobes are good. No damage to condenser, all look new except that the points tips look thin. Not pitted or discolored from ark. It looks clean and still new inside distributer. Only 6 months old. I inspected wiring for cuts or bad connection. All look good. Charging system is good too. I purchased tractor this summer and it was partially restored. Hydraulics work great when running. When it was running the tractor would move down the road with Sherman gear, adding 3 more gears so to speak. Seems cold weather may have an impact on my issue, not sure.

What I have not done, which I will take your advice and check. I have not checked spark. I purchased an adjustable spark tester and will test. I have not checked compression. I posted a topic requesting right compression tester for my application. I have not checked wiring continuity on any wires. I am going to run a direct wire from resistor block to coil to make sure I dont and a grounded wire. I am also going to wire a direct ground to chassis from battery. Should I replace cap, points and condenser or wait to see if I have good spark? I'm guessing you will say that the spark will tell me if I have a fuel or internal issue such as stuck valve? I hope I provided enough info. pLease get back to me if you have any other suggestions. Thanks

 

[Dwd14329]

Would you mind to email me? Or FaceTime me to see wth is going on with my tractor? I'm not good at describing issues. I'm learning about these tractors the more I read and troubleshoot but still have alot to learn. I seriously think I have firing or ignition system issues but don't know how to pin point the issue. My concern is that I may have an internal engine issue but I need help in how to determine that. I've read your replies and don't ignore any advice or tips but because I'm not good at describing my issue or symptoms, I'm getting all over the board replies. When I troubleshooted furnaces or air conditioners while working in my days, I could 99 % of the time diagnose the issue the first time I see it operate or described by a customer. But motor mechanics are different and I need sound advice from a mechanic that knows the trade.

 

[Dwd14329]

I just checked spark and I'm getting 1/4" jump solid white spark. One was blue for a quick second, but I can't remember which one. So do I have I shorted wire? Please don't tell me it's fuel. I started up tractor and approx 3-5 seconds it ran good then started missfiring. The carb float bowl has enough gas to run for a couple minutes, doesn't it? If anybody has had this same issue and have diagnosed the problem, please share.

Confirmed that my alternator is voltage regulator source. I'm still learning. End of topic on my end anyway. Thanks for all the tips and advice. Moving on to next topic. Troubleshooting misfire.

This post was edited by Dwd14329 on 12/28/2023 at 05:39 am.

 

[Dwd14329]

After the dry test results, I went ahead and purchased a new quality coil and put the distributer back on. Unbelievably, the tractor Fired up, runs like a charm. This is the 3rd coil I've gone through. 1st one I thought was bad due to low spark so I replaced it with a cheap coil from Amazon. I read alot of threads saying just because the coils ohm out ok doesn't mean its a good coil. Bought my 3rd one all ag states parts. After all the trouble shooting and help I got from you guys, taking up your time, it ended up being a coil. Spark is blue on all cylinders now. I will eventually trouble shoot the low compression but not until fall, after snow season. Thank you for all your help.

 

[Factotum]

Perseverance rules again!!

 

[Dwd14329]

Perseverance rules again!!

There has to be a way to trouble shoot a coil. Besides ohm test? I've read there is a secondary winding resistance but have not learned how to check it. I'll have to look that up! I'm curious to see if other coil secondaries have good resistance if that's true.

 

[Factotum]

I bet there's a high voltage tester that will tell you what voltage is coming out of the coil. Secondary test is the resistance from the high voltage output to one of the primary connections. I have found that some coils (motorcycles) the readings didn't seem to really tell you truthfully ever time. As in- correct readings and still have a faulty coil and incorrect readings and the coil works fine. Anyway congratulations, it feels great when a problem that almost seems impossible gets solved!

 

[Ed S.]

DWD, if you want to eat up some time on these cold, lonely winter evenings, hie thee over to the "Gus Wilson's Model Garage" site, where the proprietor has compiled 45 years worth of monthly 'Model Garage' articles, originally published in Popular Science Monthly magazine.

Gus and his partner solve various automotive problems each month. Since the stories started in 1925 and ran through 1970, you'll find a lot of usable tips and tricks that apply to your 2N. Besides, they're well-written and by the articles from the late 1930s, they settled on a fairly regular cast of characters, making them an engaging read. The originals were one-pagers in the magazine, so they're quick reads.

Enjoy!

 

[Dwd14329]

DWD, if you want to eat up some time on these cold, lonely winter evenings, hie thee over to the "Gus Wilson's Model Garage" site, where the proprietor has compiled 45 years worth of monthly 'Model Garage' articles, originally published in Popular Science Monthly magazine.

Gus and his partner solve various automotive problems each month. Since the stories started in 1925 and ran through 1970, you'll find a lot of usable tips and tricks that apply to your 2N. Besides, they're well-written and by the articles from the late 1930s, they settled on a fairly regular cast of characters, making them an engaging read. The originals were one-pagers in the magazine, so they're quick reads.

Enjoy!

I did take a glance af Gus site. It's not easy to navigate or search for similar issues to learn from. I just glanced at it for a few minutes but I can see that their is a lot to learn. Thanks

 

[wore out]

There has to be a way to trouble shoot a coil. Besides ohm test? I've read there is a secondary winding resistance but have not learned how to check it. I'll have to look that up! I'm curious to see if other coil secondaries have good resistance if that's true.

There are coil testers that ''ring'' the windings and display the results on a meter as a quality reading of the coil.
Basically, a ''good'' coil continues to oscillate after a spark is delivered, the oscillations are similar the ringing of a bell and (but decay more quickly) in a fraction of a second.

A short or shorts in the windings that would cause only a minute change in coil resistance dampens these oscillations and wastes potential spark energy as heat.

The coil's electrical waveform and be observed on an ignition oscilloscope, as well, which will clearly show this.

Breaker points close at "1", "1 - 2" is "coil charging/dwell time", spark occurs at "2" (height of spike is spark plug firing voltage) "3" - "4" is spark plug "burn time", spark plug firing has ended at "4", and the trailing oscillations are from the remaining energy dissipating in the coil.

With a "bad" coil there will be few or no oscillations, more or less a simple curved line.

 

[Ed S.]

I did take a glance af Gus site. It's not easy to navigate or search for similar issues to learn from. I just glanced at it for a few minutes but I can see that their is a lot to learn. Thanks

You're right about it being 'user hostile,' for sure! I suggested it more for recreational reading, from which you'll pick up some good tips.

 

[Tim PloughNman Daley RIP]

My 1947 2N was running great after new carb, distributer, plugs and wires, coil, and cleaning out gas tank and filters. I have very good gas flow thru carb. I changed oil and added sea foam to fuel tank for winter and plugged in a battery maintainer.

My issue: I started up tractor, purred like a kitten for a couple minutes, then started running as if the tractor was running on half cylinders, after a minute or so it started purring like a kitten again then started running bad again. Same cycle! I pulled plugs and they are completely fouled. I will replace plugs to see what happens but my questions is how plugs fouled? I ran tractor off and on in summer and it ran beautiful. My tractor was converted to 12v system by previous owner. I've owned it less than a year, so my question is, can a voltage regulator cause my problem? How can I test my voltage regulator? I will be testing battery voltage with a tester while running tractor after I change the plugs today but I cant figure out why this suddenly happened. Any incites? Can it be the voltage regulator and how can I know for sure if it is? I'm not a certified mechanic and don't understand the connection between the voltage regulator and firing sequence but I'm open to advice. Does the voltage regulator feed constant voltage to distributer, points, etc.. ? As you can tell, im obviosly not a mechanic. Please advise! Thanks

Your 2N never had a Voltage Regulator. though some 9N/2N owners revamped their electricals to the 8N GEN and VR later upon the 8N release, but this was never a factory option. ALL FORDs used the 6V/POS GRN electrical system. Except for the first, early 9N 1939 Tractor til March, 1940, ALL 9N and 2N Models never used a VOLTAGE RGULATOR with the GENERATOR. The first, 9N-10000-A GEN used a VR as it had the "B" Circuit Design, was a 2-Wire/2-Brush 7-AMP unit, After 1940 the GEN was changed to a 1-Wire/3-Brush, 7-AMP, "A" Circuit Design unit and now used the ROUNDCAN CUTOUT CIRCUIT. It was soon replaced by a larger11.5 AMP unit, still a 1-WIRE/3-BRUSH and this version was used all the way thru 9N/2N Production. In 1947 with the release of the new 8N Model, the charging system was revamped to a 3-Wire/3*-Brush, 11.5 AMP, "A" Circuit Design Unit and now used a VOLTAGE REGULATOR. It would soon be replaced by a 3-WIRE/2-BRUSH, 20 AMP unit and this was used up thru all Hundred Series Models as well. In the late 1950's FORD introduced the diesel models and they now used a 12-VOLT power source but were still POSITIVE GROUND and required a VOLTAGE REGULATOR as well. Except for the FORD 2N Warhorse Model that had no electrics, only used a Magneto, all 9N and 2N Models used a 1-Wire Starter Motor with NO RELAY (SOLENOID).

If'N ya wanna do this right, I advise: STOP buying new parts and replacing them willy-nilly. Perform the FUEL FLOW test and if it passes, leave it alone. Pull spark plugs and if fouled clean and recheck the gap, then reinstall. Leave them alone. NOW, with power source/battery disconnected, go thru the entire wiring setup per sketches and manuals. FACT: 99.98% of all non-starting issue are due to incorrect wiring regardless if using the OEM 6V/POS GRN or a 12-V conversion. Use a VOM set to Continuity not an idiot test light. Don't rely in what the wire colors are, not a good method, and most likely not as they were originally. It may be time to invest in a new wiring harness now anyway. You can motor/bench test the GEN and STARTER MOTOR or take to a local shop to be tested. If all pass inspection, can reinstall units. Next, and this is the most critical factor, is the notorious Front Mount Distributor. It is the #1 most misunderstood feature on these old FORDs. It is tuned and timed off the tractor on your work bench and uses no timing light. Your ESSENTIAL MANUALS all have chapters on the setting instructions. When tuned, timed, and tested, mounting the unit back on the tractor engine is most important. The engine Camshaft Face has a female offset slot on it. The Distributor Cam & Weights have a male offset tang on it and both must mate up properly at assembly. Failure will result in a broken aluminum base on the unit at first power and render it junk.

There is a lot more to the electrical system than whether if it is 6V or 12V. ALL Front Mount Distributors use the 9N-12250 Ballast Resistor in the Coil Circuit with both the 6V or 12V setup. ALL 9N/Ns use the 9N-10505-B Round Can Cutout after 1940. All units used the 9N-10850-B 30-AMP Loop AMMETER. After distributor has been tuned/rebuilt and tested on the bench, it is ready to mount. Use the STANDARD IGNTION/BLUE STREAK POINTS, p/n FD-6967X, available at NAPA. You will perform final testing when all wiring is verified correct and before turning over engine. I can post instructions one you get that far. When all is done properly and all test pass, tractor will start. Final advice is to always use a fan belt tensioning device with the GEN or ALT otherwise you will never charge the battery.

 

[Btzj02]

There has to be a way to trouble shoot a coil. Besides ohm test? I've read there is a secondary winding resistance but have not learned how to check it. I'll have to look that up! I'm curious to see if other coil secondaries have good resistance if that's true.

Coils are unique when testing for resistance. The coil wires actually have a very thin coating that needs to be immersed in oil to effectively insulate each coil wire. To insulate properly that thin coating on the wire needs to be saturated in oil. A simple resistance test on the bench may show a cold coil as being good but once that coil heats up the oil inside any failures in the insulation will start to show. This is a common problem on the electric grid too since coils in transformers also have paper coating on coil wires but need to be immersed in oil to obtain the correct strength of wire to wire insulation.