Thats Odd ?? Solenoid troubles

[olgentdc]

Yanmar 2220d was giving me fits ....with maybe start,,../ and Then maybe not, ,I thought it was a solenoid problem. There was not enough power going to the starter to engage the ring gear ear when ever it failed .. The New solenoid came and i put it on ,, Worked great ,,. Got about a dozen starts and then ,,.. SAME OLD STUFF ,,. not enough amperage to crank ,, So I cleaned the battery ground to frame connection ,, Reattached , No GooD ! <, Jumper cables from ESACAPE . . momentarily I got power to crank but had kill switch pulled,,. DUH ,, pushed in switch and turned key again ,, NOTHIN ! ARRGH !,,. another HOT battery and cables, tripling up batteries , NO Good ,.still acting like it did with the original solenoid ?..Seems like . Low Amperage ,,. Hooking direct with cables to Solenoid and grounding cable on starter bolt makes no difference ,,. I can Hear the ESCAPE alternator laboring when I attempt every trick I know to get it to engage the starter ,,. When It does engage it Winds Right Up ,,... No draggin at All ... The solenoid will get warm but not out of control Hot While trying to start , Just warm to the touch ,.. There is a fiber gasket between the starter and solenoid that might be a power insulater gasket ,,.. It is aged but not compromised,,. But besides ,That... By virtue of the bolts going thru to the solenoid it creates continuity ,, And that is from factory that wAy ../I don;t think the starter is the trouble... I have seen strange stuff in my time ,,. And this is Another one of them... I would appreciate any ideas You guys and Electric Gurus might have

 

[geok]

This post was edited by geok on 09/16/2023 at 08:34 am.

 

[Geo-TH,In]

You didn't mention using test equipment to find your problem. Throwing parts at the problem can be expensive.
This meter can measure voltage, resistance and DC amps.

The midtrontics meter tells me the condition of the battery, cranking amps, and if the alternator is charging.

If you don't have test equipment I recommend you buy some and take the guesswork out of repairing electrical problems.

You are asking us to guess what's wrong.

 

[sms]

I'm not sure from your description if you tried engaging the starter without the solenoid. I had similar aggravation from a Yanmar excavator. Had trouble starting it for a couple years, sometimes it worked sometimes it didn't. Finally quit, needed a new starter, went to local trusted auto- electric shop, he sold me a new gear drive starter. What a difference! Turned over much faster, better, reliable. Huge improvement. I would have gladly spent the money much sooner if I had known.

 

[Hemmjo]

Over our life time, wire does not degrade. Exception being if it is in a excessively corrosive environment, which would also eat away the machine before the wire. Wire is however subject to mechanical damage, even if you cannot see it.

Degradation in current carrying capacity in circuits is almost ALWAYS related to bad connections.

The transition from the wire to the connector is the most common point of failure. Vibration, and movement causes fatigue in the wire, the strands break. Slowly over time, there it not enough functioning conductor to pass enough current.

I am betting on this. When you changed solenoids, you moved the wires. Just by chance the conductors moved back into contact and the new solenoid worked until the wires vibrated apart again.

I have made this repair hundreds of times over my 50+ years of working on things. I cannot count how many times I have had to shorten the cords on hair dryers for my wife and daughter. They wrap the cord around the dryer, toss it in a drawer. 365 times a year that cord gets wrapped around, bending the wire in the exact same spot, the wires break.

It can happen anyplace the wire is stressed. I have NEVER seen wire break in the middle of a run, UNLESS it makes a sharp bend and it subject to flexing. CHECK all of your wire ends. Often the insulation looks good but the conductors are broken inside. Sometimes you can see heat damage as heat is generated as current flows through the areas of resistance.

Good luck

 

[Texasmark]

I recently bought a 1980 Ford 3600 that exhibited the same problem. In short, discounting all the other things I did, the problem was the starter-solenoid assembly. I paid about $160 for the new assembly and problem gone. Now engages every time and works great. Now was it this or that in the assembly? I don't know and don't care. The problem is fixed.

One of the neat things I picked up from Bern was the fact that I could get the assembly out without having to remove the injection pump....which I did before on a different tractor not knowing that it can be done without that removal. Knowing that something is doable is half the battle. I had no problem wiggling the assembly around to the right position and out it came.

 

[olgentdc]

Thank You Guys, for ALL the responses ,,. You Guys need to understand that i DIRECTLY jumped to the solenoid power and got the same result ,the ground was attached to the starter bolts ,AND YES it was a HOT Battery with VERY GOOD Cables that stay in the dry and never get wet .. ,. THAT has always determined what the problem was in all my 55 yrs of experience ,I have doubts about shorted wiring ,, All is in great condition and have not been wrangled and wrestled and or abused . AND Multi=meters for Me are best off left in the Drawer!.... Well Sorry , George ,I never took the time to educate myself on WHat They Do and How I can KNOW and make a CORRECT CONCLUSION without a doubt exactly what it is capable of telling Me ,, I have at least 4 multi meters ,,. But I dont know what the readings mean except for a continuity check ,,.All the switches work great ,,. But without knowledge of what they mean it keeps ME GUESSING ,,. If You now of a GOOD You Tube seminar I am all ears ..

 

[Blackhole49]

Long post. My 1988 F2000 Kubota was doing exactly the same thing even after I replaced the starter and solenoid. jm explained to me that the problem in a nut shell was that all the safety switches were preventing proper voltage from getting to the solenoid to fully activate it. His simple solution was to add another solenoid (I had a spare from my 8n). Take the activation wire from your current solenoid and use it to activate the new solenoid. Run a 10 guage wite from your + battery terminal to one large post on your new solenoid and another from the other large post to the activation terminal on your old solenoid. My original starter and solenoid have been working flawlessly for 4 years like this.

 

[Blackhole49]

I should add: A simple test might be to jump a wire(10 or 12 gauge) from the + battery terminal to the activation post on your current solenoid and see what happens. Prior to my repair, all I got was a click when I turned the key and occasionally it would catch.

 

[Janicholson]

One more item Brushes in the starter can hang up or be worn and make intermittent contact. When it fails to start use a plastic mallet to give the brush end of the starter a solid rap. if it then starts, replace the brushes. Jim

 

[kencombs]

I suspect you are right in stating the issue is low amperage. But, not to the starter. Rather to the solenoid engagement coil. Happens so often that even JD has a wiring/relay kit for some older lawn and garden tractors. Try jumping from the battery + directly to the SOLENOID coil. If there is a switch to solenoid wire issue that should bypass it.

I have the same thing going on with my little JD455 diesel. But I know what is causing it, just haven't replaced the connector that plugs onto the solenoid yet. In that case it is just an intermittent no start/click/click thing, but was a no start until I cleaned that connector.

 

[BarnyardEngineering]

In all that, I did not see where you changed out the starter as a whole. The starter could have a bad spot on the commutator or in the windings.

Without a "growler" and knowing how to use it, all you can do is try a new starter. You could take the starter to an automotive electrical shop if you have one nearby and they'll pull it down and test it on the growler... for $100+/hr shop time.

 

[showcrop]

You need to do a voltage drop test.

 

[Donald in MN]

my dads 706d had trouble starting seems like the starter was dragging . i took to a starter generator repair shop. they said that the copper lug from the solenoid to the starter was bad and not letting enough current to the starter they put in a new lug and it works fine

 

[olgentdc]

Yep ,,that's what i did ,,..Started right up then! ,,. Got it back out of
the cedar thicket pasture and to the shop . It Started 4 more times after
that . BUT , I will be getting the starter off and having it checked out.

 

[olgentdc]

Yep ,,that's what i did , Gave the starter a hammer tap ,..Started right up
then! ,,. Got it back out of the cedar thicket pasture and to the shop .
It Started 4 more times after that . BUT , I will be getting the starter
off and having it checked out.