Stuck valve options?

[Dwd14329]

I don't know much about engine mechanics, kinda do it myself handyman. I've learned alot on this forum and reaching out to the tractor masters. My tractor is a 1947 Ford 2N, 12v conversion. I've owned it less than a year and think I may have stuck valves. I will be conducting a compression test when my tool arrives but all indications show a stuck valve. Missfiring continously after start up until it eventually dies during idle or adding throttle. This is my 3rd topic on the issue so please bare with me.

The question: can I spray a couple blasts of PB blaster in each cylinder for a preventative maintenance on the valves just in case they are sticking? I got the idea on youtube from a mechanic that was successful with this process. He had one valve sticking on him occasionally with same symptoms I had and sprayed the valve that was sticking on a couple different occurances until the valve eventually lubricated to the point it did not stick any more. Until I can tear into this engine for the long haul, a rebuild so to speak in the summer, would this process hurt anything eternally in the engine? It would be a heck of alot easier to spray a couple shots of PB blaster instead of removing the hood. Saying all this, I haven't confirmed my compression yet, I would like to get a jump on things just in case it drops a foot of snow tonight. Never know! I'm more or less looking for a mechanics blessing. Should I or shouldn't I? Any other short intern tips? Would it hurt to spray the valves if they are already in good shape? My gut tells me I have a valve sticking. According to the previous owner, the engine was rebuilt so I'm hoping I don't have a gasket leak, i haven't gotten to that point yet. The engine was running great at the end of fall until colder weather set in. Started missfiring consistently. Weak fire, steady solid white spark on all cylinders. I've went through some extensive ignition and carb checks to confirm those parts are operating correctly. Based on the 2 previous post.

This post was edited by Dwd14329 on 12/27/2023 at 05:37 am.

 

[Mike Groom]

I've had good results by taking the side cover off behind the exhaust manifold and using PB blaster on the valve stems, that's the most direct way to get it on the valve train.

 

[showcrop]

To have any hope of freeing it without removing the head take the side cover off and spray in there. You will also be able to see if one is bent.

 

[Dwd14329]

(quoted from post at 07:00:36 12/27/23) I've had good results by taking the side cover off behind the exhaust manifold and using PB blaster on the valve stems, that's the most direct way to get it on the valve train.

Thanks for the tips gentlemen.

Dumb question, do I need a gasket for side cover after I remove it? I'm guessing yes but I doubt the existing one, if there is one can be re-used. Also, can I turn over the engine while the cover is removed to see if valves are free?

 

[Dwd14329]

(quoted from post at 07:02:19 12/27/23)


To have any hope of freeing it without removing the head take the side cover off and spray in there. You will also be able to see if one is bent.

Will do!

 

[Dwd14329]

(quoted from post at 07:02:19 12/27/23)


To have any hope of freeing it without removing the head take the side cover off and spray in there. You will also be able to see if one is bent.

Will a compression test tell if I have a sticking valve? There is a bolt in the center of each cover. Can these covers be removed without removing exhaust manifold or governor? Will I need new gaskets? I didn't realize these covers were there. Are they difficult to pry out?

This post was edited by Dwd14329 on 12/27/2023 at 09:32 am.

 

[used red MN]

..Can I turn the engine over with the side cover off?
Yes, nothing will be harmed by turning the engine. The
timing of the camshaft that has lobes to push the
valves open is done by gears meshing in the front gear
case of the engine. The timing means they operate at
the correct time to function with the strokes of the
pistons. You should look for some videos that explain
the operation of 4 cycle engines. This may help you
understand what is going on in the engine. I hate to
steer you away from YT but I have to code this a bit for
it to go through the YT filters. Search for a site that
may be for a ..club.. of people who like ..N.. tractors. At
their site at the top there is a manuals section. Go
down to ..Tractors.. you will find a repair manual there.
If you need more details on that email me.
Here is a link to the manufacturers parts catalog, this
will also give you a reference for the layout of the
machines internals.
CNHI Ford 2N parts catalog

 

[used red MN]

I will also add this, although a sharp blue spark is ideal
that does not mean that a ..white.. spark will not run
your tractor. Can you get it to jump a 3/16 inch? If so it
will probably fire the plugs. I am not a Ford guy but I do
not think you can properly polarize a coil on those
front mount distributors unless you buy a coil setup to
correctly polarize it for a negative ground set up.
Maybe a Ford guy will chime in and give some input on
this. A coil will operate with reversed polarity but it will
not produce optimal spark.
Also in a previous thread (see link) I asked about your
operation of the choke at start up. Heavy choke during
a warm up period will foul spark plugs, simple as that.
It does not explain why you say it operated fine for a
period of time when you first owned it.
Previous YT post

 

[Eman85]

I wouldn't think a sticking valve would be your problem but you did say the engine was rebuilt and the human error is a powerful force. Generally valves stick and stay stuck and it's usually from an engine sitting especially if they are gunked up or water got in.
You can pull the covers and run the engine, it will make an oily mess. Turning it over is no problem and you should check the valve adjustment while you are there.

 

[Ultradog MN]

IF the pressure test determines you have a
stuck valve or valves, in addition to
spraying a penetrating oil on the valve
stems behind the side covers it will not
hurt to pull the plugs and pour half a cup
of ATF or some such down the spark plug
holes then turn the engine over by hand.
The pistons will push the oil up and
completely flood the combustion chamber
including the valves from the top.

 

[Dwd14329]

(quoted from post at 12:24:03 12/27/23) I wouldn't think a sticking valve would be your problem but you did say the engine was rebuilt and the human error is a powerful force. Generally valves stick and stay stuck and it's usually from an engine sitting especially if they are gunked up or water got in.
You can pull the covers and run the engine, it will make an oily mess. Turning it over is no problem and you should check the valve adjustment while you are there.

Thanks Eman, I've been running the tractor all summer and I maintain it and keep it in my shed. As long as I can turn it over and check valves, that's a plus. A mess is not what I need. I'm thinking I can check for bent valve stems and visually see if a valve is sticking then try to get it unstuck if stuck. I'll have to read up on valve adjustment. Thanks again!

 

[Dwd14329]

(quoted from post at 18:12:31 12/27/23) IF the pressure test determines you have a
stuck valve or valves, in addition to
spraying a penetrating oil on the valve
stems behind the side covers it will not
hurt to pull the plugs and pour half a cup
of ATF or some such down the spark plug
holes then turn the engine over by hand.
The pistons will push the oil up and
completely flood the combustion chamber
including the valves from the top.

Will flooding the combustion chamber with atf oil cause fuel/oil mix issue when i put it back together and try to fire it up? Foul plugs, etc...? Like I said, I have no mechanical knowledge on engines except from what I read or learn from your guys. Just want to know what to expect. Thanks for the tip.

 

[Dwd14329]

(quoted from post at 11:34:34 12/27/23) I will also add this, although a sharp blue spark is ideal
that does not mean that a ..white.. spark will not run
your tractor. Can you get it to jump a 3/16 inch? If so it
will probably fire the plugs. I am not a Ford guy but I do
not think you can properly polarize a coil on those
front mount distributors unless you buy a coil setup to
correctly polarize it for a negative ground set up.
Maybe a Ford guy will chime in and give some input on
this. A coil will operate with reversed polarity but it will
not produce optimal spark.
Also in a previous thread (see link) I asked about your
operation of the choke at start up. Heavy choke during
a warm up period will foul spark plugs, simple as that.
It does not explain why you say it operated fine for a
period of time when you first owned it.
Previous YT post

I think I follow you regarding the choke. When I start it cold, I do have to choke it about a third to start it. But choking will not smooth out missfirng. As far as previously running, all I had to do was give it a little choke a couple times on idle and it ran great. I'm not following you on coil reverse polarity. Can that happen while sitting a day or two? After the weather turned cold I would periodically start the tractor to make sure it was operating and ready for snow removal. Then the missfiring started after it got real cold. I get a 1/4" spark on each cylinder, and smell excessive fuel from exhaust. If I Rev the engine, it will miss harder and eventually backfire. It's not combusting fuel! My thought anyway! My goal is to get it to idle on smooth firing first, hopefully. After the previous topics and checking everything that I could, my gut was telling me I have internal issues. Something happened to cause misfire suddenly, not an adjustment or anything different that I was doing starting it up. Besides points/condenser or coil going bad, what could possibly make my engine start missfiring suddenly, except for timing gear jumped or sticking valve, right? I don't know for sure, I'm looking step by step. I think I eliminated every other possibility. ?? Unfortunately, I m still waiting for compression tester. Due tomorrow. I will post any results if anybody is following and or interested.

This post was edited by Dwd14329 on 12/27/2023 at 05:45 pm.

 

[Dwd14329]

(quoted from post at 11:12:54 12/27/23) ..Can I turn the engine over with the side cover off?
Yes, nothing will be harmed by turning the engine. The
timing of the camshaft that has lobes to push the
valves open is done by gears meshing in the front gear
case of the engine. The timing means they operate at
the correct time to function with the strokes of the
pistons. You should look for some videos that explain
the operation of 4 cycle engines. This may help you
understand what is going on in the engine. I hate to
steer you away from YT but I have to code this a bit for
it to go through the YT filters. Search for a site that
may be for a ..club.. of people who like ..N.. tractors. At
their site at the top there is a manuals section. Go
down to ..Tractors.. you will find a repair manual there.
If you need more details on that email me.
Here is a link to the manufacturers parts catalog, this
will also give you a reference for the layout of the
machines internals.
CNHI Ford 2N parts catalog

Thanks!

 

[Dwd14329]

(quoted from post at 11:34:34 12/27/23) I will also add this, although a sharp blue spark is ideal
that does not mean that a ..white.. spark will not run
your tractor. Can you get it to jump a 3/16 inch? If so it
will probably fire the plugs. I am not a Ford guy but I do
not think you can properly polarize a coil on those
front mount distributors unless you buy a coil setup to
correctly polarize it for a negative ground set up.
Maybe a Ford guy will chime in and give some input on
this. A coil will operate with reversed polarity but it will
not produce optimal spark.
Also in a previous thread (see link) I asked about your
operation of the choke at start up. Heavy choke during
a warm up period will foul spark plugs, simple as that.
It does not explain why you say it operated fine for a
period of time when you first owned it.
Previous YT post

The first thing I did was to replace the coil. Although I read 2.5 ohms on a meter, I understand that doesn't necessarily mean the coil is good. When key is on and points are open, I read 13 v. With points closed I read 9 v. I'm not sure what that value is telling me but I do know points are opening and closing and I'm getting voltage to the plugs. Not sure if I can test anything else besides plug wire which I ohmed and all are less than a ohm. If it's still misfiring under these conditions, it's gotta be valves, doesn't it? I tried to run it lean and or rich. No carb adjustment made a bit of difference. Now, internal vapor lock would be something that makes sense because of the temperature change. Correct? Blown head gasket or exhaust manifold gasket? I don't see indications externally that would point to a blown gasket. What else would cause internal vapor lock? Can't be fuel lines getting hot, engine hasn't run long enough and it's not hot outside. Misfires right after start up.

 

[Jim.ME]

(quoted from post at 22:23:59 12/27/23)

(quoted from post at 11:34:34 12/27/23) I will also add this, although a sharp blue spark is ideal
that does not mean that a ..white.. spark will not run
your tractor. Can you get it to jump a 3/16 inch? If so it
will probably fire the plugs. I am not a Ford guy but I do
not think you can properly polarize a coil on those
front mount distributors unless you buy a coil setup to
correctly polarize it for a negative ground set up.
Maybe a Ford guy will chime in and give some input on
this. A coil will operate with reversed polarity but it will
not produce optimal spark.
Also in a previous thread (see link) I asked about your
operation of the choke at start up. Heavy choke during
a warm up period will foul spark plugs, simple as that.
It does not explain why you say it operated fine for a
period of time when you first owned it.
Previous YT post

The first thing I did was to replace the coil. Although I read 2.5 ohms on a meter, I understand that doesn't necessarily mean the coil is good. When key is on and points are open, I read 13 v. With points closed I read 9 v. I'm not sure what that value is telling me but I do know points are opening and closing and I'm getting voltage to the plugs. Not sure if I can test anything else besides plug wire which I ohmed and all are less than a ohm. If it's still misfiring under these conditions, it's gotta be valves, doesn't it? I tried to run it lean and or rich. No carb adjustment made a bit of difference. Now, internal vapor lock would be something that makes sense because of the temperature change. Correct? Blown head gasket or exhaust manifold gasket? I don't see indications externally that would point to a blown gasket. What else would cause internal vapor lock? Can't be fuel lines getting hot, engine hasn't run long enough and it's not hot outside. Misfires right after start up.

Did you clean the contacts of the points, by rubbing a piece of clean card stock or brown paper bag between them while closed, after you installed them? It is not uncommon for the surfaces to have a coating on them or oxidize some after setting. Dirty, oily feeler gauges can contaminate them as well. Likely this isn't your problem, but I figured it is worth mentioning so you might clean them next time you have the distributor open.

 

[Eman85]

You're all over the board with diagnosis on this tractor. Before you put anything in the cylinder understand one law of mechanics A liquid cannot be compressed. If you put anything in the cylinder you must get the majority of it out before you try and start it or you can hydraulically lock the engine.

 

[Dwd14329]

Did you clean the contacts of the points, by rubbing a piece of clean card stock or brown paper bag between them while closed, after you installed them? It is not uncommon for the surfaces to have a coating on them or oxidize some after setting. Dirty, oily feeler gauges can contaminate them as well. Likely this isn't your problem, but I figured it is worth mentioning so you might clean them next time you have the distributor open.

I didn't know about cleaning contacts after installing them but I did that with the new blue streak contacts I just installed. Previous owner bought some cheap parts and it was difficult installing quality points. The shaft with lobes seamed smaller and I had to make modifications to the points base to make it work properly. Goes to say what all the experienced members have been saying, BUY Quality Parts! I've been buying parts from same provider, all ag states, only because I've had better results and consistency. Is there a particular brand that produces quality Ford parts? I'm considering installing the EI and eliminating the points all together but still debating. Have seen pros and cons on YT, waiting! Have a great new year!

 

[Dwd14329]

You're all over the board with diagnosis on this tractor. Before you put anything in the cylinder understand one law of mechanics A liquid cannot be compressed. If you put anything in the cylinder you must get the majority of it out before you try and start it or you can hydraulically lock the engine.

As I mentioned, I'm not a mechanic, I can only describe my issue as I see it. If you would like to elaborate on "all over the board", I would be happy to explain. What part of diagnosis am I all over the board? I will try to explain the best I can. I generally explain my past experience when I post a topic so that the best of mechanics would understand but i figured a good mechanic could tell by my description, so I stopped making excuses. Im sure they had to learn as well, unless they were born with wrenches in their hands. No disrespect Eman! Doesn't hurt to learn....thats what this forum is for, right? I can see how an experience mechanic that works on these tractors everyday can say that but I haven't recieved any direct questions regarding my description or diagnosis, so I can only assume my diagnosis of my issue is accurate. Shoot, in my 65 years, I've never worked on an engine in my life accept for general maintenance. So I do the best I can with the little experience I have. I take all tips and advice serious although tips and advice vary. I don't plan on pulling the hood off so now I have to re-evaluate the previous tips from other members to see what the best course of action would be as far as pooring ATF or just a few blasts of PB blaster in the cylinders. I don't want to create more problems than I need. I haven't even gotten to that point yet, so I appreciate the heads up. I installed blue streak points/condenser and a known good working coil last evening, so if my compression test has good results today, I will try to fire it up again. If compression test fails, I will open side covers and inspect valves to see what I can find. That will determine if I need to reach out for more help on YT.

I sure hope I don't have to explain myself again. Turning into a social platform!

Happy New Year Eman!

 

[Dwd14329]

My results for compression test is as follows: firing order 1423

#1 cylinder 94 psi
#2 cylinder 81 psi
#3 cylinder 89 psi
#4 cylinder 83 psi

Can you or any mechanic see any red flags with these results? Please advise.