Massey 180 won't turn over unless the clutch is disengaged.

[jonathanb]

I have a Massey 180 diesel with a peculiar issue. I was having a fuel issue and working on bleeding the fuel lines. I was turning the tractor over several times while it was in neutral (both the high/low range and the gear shifter were in neutral). After turning the tractor over for the fifth or sixth time, the starter went "clunk" and wouldn't turn over the engine. It was as if the tractor was suddenly in gear, and the starter couldn't turn the flywheel. I initially thought that I smoked the starter, but I eventually figured out it wasn't a starter or battery connection issue. If the clutch is disengaged, the tractor will turn over and start fine. But if the clutch is disengaged, the starter won't turn the engine over. Moreover, when the tractor is running, if I begin to engage the clutch, the engine bogs down, but the tractor won't move (both shifters are still in neutral). It easily shifts into gear but still won't move and wants to stall if I start to engage the clutch. I haven't fully engaged the clutch because I'm afraid it is stuck between gears. But how could that have happened when no one touched the shifters, and I had just been turning the tractor over? More info is that the PTO engages and disengages fine (when running with the clutch disengaged). The tractor also has a multipower that is stuck in high (it has been that way since I got the tractor 2+ years ago). I'm a bit at a loss on how to tackle this other than messing with the shifters. Any thoughts? Thanks!

 

[Dieseltech]

Sounds like the transmission has some broken gear teeth inside.

 

[Bob N.Y.]

I have a Massey 180 diesel with a peculiar issue. I was having a fuel issue and working on bleeding the fuel lines. I was turning the tractor over several times while it was in neutral (both the high/low range and the gear shifter were in neutral). After turning the tractor over for the fifth or sixth time, the starter went "clunk" and wouldn't turn over the engine. It was as if the tractor was suddenly in gear, and the starter couldn't turn the flywheel. I initially thought that I smoked the starter, but I eventually figured out it wasn't a starter or battery connection issue. If the clutch is disengaged, the tractor will turn over and start fine. But if the clutch is disengaged, the starter won't turn the engine over. Moreover, when the tractor is running, if I begin to engage the clutch, the engine bogs down, but the tractor won't move (both shifters are still in neutral). It easily shifts into gear but still won't move and wants to stall if I start to engage the clutch. I haven't fully engaged the clutch because I'm afraid it is stuck between gears. But how could that have happened when no one touched the shifters, and I had just been turning the tractor over? More info is that the PTO engages and disengages fine (when running with the clutch disengaged). The tractor also has a multipower that is stuck in high (it has been that way since I got the tractor 2+ years ago). I'm a bit at a loss on how to tackle this other than messing with the shifters. Any thoughts? Thanks!

Multi-Power stuck in high is very unusual. High requires hydraulic pressure, low doesn't. Have you checked the M-P linkage on top of the clutch housing to see if it is actually moving the rod up and down?

 

[Dieseltech]

Multi-Power stuck in high is very unusual. High requires hydraulic pressure, low doesn't. Have you checked the M-P linkage on top of the clutch housing to see if it is actually moving the rod up and down?

It might be stuck in HI if the spool was in Hi and the shift linkage Bel crank pivot bolt broke. I've seen that happen before years ago on a late 65 model. The rod moved up/down but the spool did not move.

 

[jonathanb]

I will double check, but I believe the MP linkage moves. I recall seeing a similar MP problem on a friend's 165 where there was a hydraulic tube broken in the bell that was required to shift the MP. We had to split the tractor to fix it. I am still at a loss as to how it locked up while simple being cranked in neutral. I'm starting to think I'm going to need to split the tractor.

 

[Harry in Ky]

I will double check, but I believe the MP linkage moves. I recall seeing a similar MP problem on a friend's 165 where there was a hydraulic tube broken in the bell that was required to shift the MP. We had to split the tractor to fix it. I am still at a loss as to how it locked up while simple being cranked in neutral. I'm starting to think I'm going to need to split the tractor.

I agree you will probably have to split, but the question is where to split. I can't think of anything in the clutch housing that would cause that. There's not a lot of visual access to the gears on the 180. I think I would probably try to get the shift cover off and see what that shows. Maybe try rolling some gears backward and forward with a pry bar and see what turns and what doesn't.

 

[quefan]

Possibly something broke in one of the hydraulic pumps or the aux pump drive gears ?

 

[miangus]

I have a Massey 180 diesel with a peculiar issue. I was having a fuel issue and working on bleeding the fuel lines. I was turning the tractor over several times while it was in neutral (both the high/low range and the gear shifter were in neutral). After turning the tractor over for the fifth or sixth time, the starter went "clunk" and wouldn't turn over the engine. It was as if the tractor was suddenly in gear, and the starter couldn't turn the flywheel. I initially thought that I smoked the starter, but I eventually figured out it wasn't a starter or battery connection issue. If the clutch is disengaged, the tractor will turn over and start fine. But if the clutch is disengaged, the starter won't turn the engine over. Moreover, when the tractor is running, if I begin to engage the clutch, the engine bogs down, but the tractor won't move (both shifters are still in neutral). It easily shifts into gear but still won't move and wants to stall if I start to engage the clutch. I haven't fully engaged the clutch because I'm afraid it is stuck between gears. But how could that have happened when no one touched the shifters, and I had just been turning the tractor over? More info is that the PTO engages and disengages fine (when running with the clutch disengaged). The tractor also has a multipower that is stuck in high (it has been that way since I got the tractor 2+ years ago). I'm a bit at a loss on how to tackle this other than messing with the shifters. Any thoughts? Thanks!

Take the transmission oil filler cover off and see what you can see.

 

[jonathanb]

I got it fixed. I jacked up the rear end and turned the wheels while it was in gear. I still have no idea how it locked itself up while cranking in neutral, but I'm glad it's fixed. I also checked the MP. The linkage does move, but it doesn't shift. Thanks guys!

 

[Bob N.Y.]

I got it fixed. I jacked up the rear end and turned the wheels while it was in gear. I still have no idea how it locked itself up while cranking in neutral, but I'm glad it's fixed. I also checked the MP. The linkage does move, but it doesn't shift. Thanks guys!

There must be a problem with the MP linkage inside the clutch housing.

 

[miangus]

I got it fixed. I jacked up the rear end and turned the wheels while it was in gear. I still have no idea how it locked itself up while cranking in neutral, but I'm glad it's fixed. I also checked the MP. The linkage does move, but it doesn't shift. Thanks guys!

Maybe a small piece of ice in the planetary.

 

[jonathanb]

I was too quick to declare victory. There is something seizing in the transmission. The tractor easily pushes when not running and in neutral, so it isn't stuck in 2 gears. I can't see any problems when looking through the tranny fill.

This previous post describes the problem exactly, but there isn't a clear answer as to what caused it. https://forums.yesterdaystractors.com/threads/mf180-clutch-trans-problem.1405743/

 

[Harry in Ky]

I was too quick to declare victory. There is something seizing in the transmission. The tractor easily pushes when not running and in neutral, so it isn't stuck in 2 gears. I can't see any problems when looking through the tranny fill.

This previous post describes the problem exactly, but there isn't a clear answer as to what caused it. https://forums.yesterdaystractors.com/threads/mf180-clutch-trans-problem.1405743/

That's not uncommon here. Things are discussed, ideas are shared, etc, and in the end all too often the problem is solved and solutions never get reported back.

 

[miangus]

I was too quick to declare victory. There is something seizing in the transmission. The tractor easily pushes when not running and in neutral, so it isn't stuck in 2 gears. I can't see any problems when looking through the tranny fill.

This previous post describes the problem exactly, but there isn't a clear answer as to what caused it. https://forums.yesterdaystractors.com/threads/mf180-clutch-trans-problem.1405743/

Maybe deadheading something in the hydraulic system. Does it have a 2-stage clutch? I believe tractors with live PTO run the PTO input shaft and hydraulic pump even when the clutch is disengaged. Tractors with the 2-stage clutch do not run the hydraulic system pump or the MP pump when the clutch is all the way down. I am trying to remember if any portion of the planetary system in the High/Low system turns with the shifter in neutral. The main transmission input shaft turns even with the main shifter in neutral. Maybe one of the bearings is failing.

 

[Caryc]

My MF202 did the same thing. I went out to start it one morning and it started fine but as soon as a let up on the clutch it died on me. Both levers in neutral position. Every time I'd start it then let up on the clutch, it died. Again both shift levers in neutral. I went out a couple days later and started it and it was fine again. I did nothing to it. It just fixed itself. It was fine when I parked it. No ice, I'm in Southern California. That was like three years ago and it hasn't done it since.

I hope yours also fixes itself.

 

[jonathanb]

Maybe deadheading something in the hydraulic system. Does it have a 2-stage clutch? I believe tractors with live PTO run the PTO input shaft and hydraulic pump even when the clutch is disengaged. Tractors with the 2-stage clutch do not run the hydraulic system pump or the MP pump when the clutch is all the way down. I am trying to remember if any portion of the planetary system in the High/Low system turns with the shifter in neutral. The main transmission input shaft turns even with the main shifter in neutral. Maybe one of the bearings is failing.

It has a live PTO. I believe that you are right, the outer PTO input shaft always spins while the inner transmission shaft should only spin when the clutch is engaged. I wonder if these two shafts are bound up. There seems to be an inspection plate (perhaps clutch adjustment on the bottom of the bell housing. I'm going to try pulling it to see if there is something binding.

 

[miangus]

It has a live PTO. I believe that you are right, the outer PTO input shaft always spins while the inner transmission shaft should only spin when the clutch is engaged. I wonder if these two shafts are bound up. There seems to be an inspection plate (perhaps clutch adjustment on the bottom of the bell housing. I'm going to try pulling it to see if there is something binding.

Have you tried shifting the High/Low shifter into high? Maybe it is partially in low and high at the same time. Maybe put it in high gear and pull it backward, which might allow some crumb to fall clear.

 

[jonathanb]

Have you tried shifting the High/Low shifter into high? Maybe it is partially in low and high at the same time. Maybe put it in high gear and pull it backward, which might allow some crumb to fall clear.

I jacked up the rear end and moved the wheels back and forth in all the gears of high and low range. I will free it up, but as soon as you start the engine, it will lock up again. I can hear gears clashing and popping before it stalls out.

 

[miangus]

I jacked up the rear end and moved the wheels back and forth in all the gears of high and low range. I will free it up, but as soon as you start the engine, it will lock up again. I can hear gears clashing and popping before it stalls out.

From those symptoms we can rule out being in two gears at once. It sounds like there are a set of constant mesh gear which turn all the time the clutch is engaged. There probably is a chip off a gear or some kind of crumb stuck in one of those gears. I would remove the filler cap and try to see if I could see anything. I would also attempt to rotate the gear set all the in the reverse direction until it stops going that way. Maybe a couple of trips through the oil might get the obstruction out. Might be time to remove the shifter cover.

 

[J.Wondergem]

My Dad's Oliver did about the same thing. Turned out to be the input shaft bearings went out and seized up the input shaft.