Ford 3600 Diesel Loses Power/rpm Under Load

[jedoga]

Owner recently purchased a Ford 3600 Diesel. Tried to rake hay with it, but it quickly dropped rpm to 1400 and would barely
crawl. Woul not regain rpm in neutral until after some time to cool down. Owner removed single fuel filter and replaced.
Problem persisted. I removed new filter and found it to be clean with no water present. Fuel flowing from tank appeared clean.
Topped off tank with fresh diesel, bled filter, injector pump, then cracked lines one by one at injectors while running. After
warmed up and running at 2300 rpm the the rpm slowly began to drop. I loosened the injector lines one by one and noticed
significant engine reaction on #s 2 and 3 but no change on #1. Figured a bad injector on #1 cylinder even if that was not the
underlying issue. Owner decided to take the tractor to Ford/New Holland dealer to have it serviced.

The dealer shop replced all three injectors, leak off lines, and seals. They called after a month and said it was ready.
Owner tried to pick up, but tractor would not get over 1300 rpm while he tried to load on trailer. Shop manager said they
replaced injectors and found a new injector to be faulty, so they reordered three more and replaced again. After second set they
said it ran well. Owner left it for another couple weeks so they could find out why it still did not run. He was told it was
fixed had been driven for some time and ran right so he came to pick it up. Paid 800 dollars then went to load up, and tractor
ran even worse. 1200 rpm and sputtered and died on trailer ramps. Parts guy said it was injector pump and they could not locate
a replacement. Opened hood and found an old injector(painted blue) in #3 cylinder. Owner got pretty mad and went in to talk.
Obvious run around. Demanded his old injectors and got a bag with two old(blue painted) and one new. Owner asked me to pull
injectors and pump then he went to local injector rebuilders. Three old injectors and pump rebuilt for 1100 dollars. I
reinstalled all and started. Let tractor warm up and then opened up the throttle while putting away tools. Ran around 2400 rpm
without a problem. Drove out of the barn and let idle at 2200 rpm for another ten minutes. Took it for a road test and after a
quarter mile same thing. RPM dropped and tractor died. Very frustrating. Started and limped back to barn. Started with the
loosening of lines while sputtering at 1400 rpm and found all injectors caused engine change when cracked.

The radiator water is oil free and the engine oil is water free. Oil bath air filter is clean, exhaust pipe is clear. I
don't suspect block/head issues. The problem happens quickly after the tractor has to pull its own weight. Does this still
sound like fuel starvation? Is there something I have missed? Thinking about pulling tank and cleaning inside for assurance of
good flow to filter.

Update for 18OCT2022. Removed muffler, hood, gauge cluster, throttle handle, stop cable, key and headlight switch. Tried to remove steering wheel-ha ha. Soaking overnight in penetrating oil. Going to try not to damage it during removal.
Pulled fuel filter, emptied and cleaned bowl. Seal in bowl looks good. Cleaned filter mount(not bad) seal and o-ring in place looks good. Fuel looks good in filter.
Removed fuel shutoff, blew out line to filter and cleaned the ends good. Blew out screen which is held on with metal epoxy. Took out needle valve and blew out the entire fitting. There was ptfe tape around the bottom of the screen and rust particles and flakes. Stuck a pinkie finger in the tank outlet and got plenty of rust and sediment.
At the tank filler neck there is a fitting that has the fuel return line to tank, the fuel return line from injectors, a plugged hole for a hard line, and a hard line with a soft connection at the bottom that goes to the intake manifold. Don't know about that. Removed and emptied. Fuel looked bad. Line from intake manifold was full of bad fuel as well-blew it out. Removed the plug from unused port and blew out that fitting and cleaned it up good. Will fill it with good fuel and shake it to see if any junk is in it. The fuel did make it back to the tank, but I don't know what this is or what it guts look like. Why bad fuel in the intake manifold line and bad fuel trapped in the thing?
So, the tank is pretty badly contaminated and without a good douching, I cannot be confident the problem will be solved or if it will persist. Gonna tune up my singing voice for some operatic cursing pulling that steering wheel in the morning. Thanks again for the help y'all.

This post was edited by jedoga on 10/18/2022 at 05:07 pm.

 

[Bern]

Darn right it sounds like fuel starvation. My money is on a plugged screen in the tank. Take off line at fuel filter where it connects to the tank and make sure you have a nice steady stream coming out. For longer than 2 seconds.

Also suggest to the owner that he never takes it back to that stealership.

 

[jedoga]

Alright Bern. You seem pretty confident and I like your stealership designation. He gave them a pretty hard talking to and is getting a refund on the injectors, but still out 500 dollars in wasted labor. 5 hours to replace three injectors. He told them he could guess what the problem was for a lot less than 100 bucks an hour. Hope I can be Carl from Slingblade for the owner. Will update after a thorough extra mile cleaning of tank to be sure hidden slime or rust flakes don't just reclog screen later. Tractor was bought at auction and don't know how long it may have been derelict. It sure had a pretty coat of blue paint with overspray all over the hoses, wires, and belt though. First indicator to me of a lipsticked pig.

 

[Sean in PA]

Was the air intake ever checked to make sure there's not something in there clogging things up?

 

[Bern]

As my former boss used to say (owner of a Ford tractor dealership), paint it blue and make it new!

 

[Keith Williams]

jedoga,
Within the last few months, there was a post from Destroked 450 (I think), who described a filter in the back of the injector pump.

Also, there have been many posts about the placement of O-rings with certain brands of fuel filters.

Just some other things to check.
Keith

 

[jedoga]

Injector pump has been rebuilt since purchase Keith. Am going to check the owner's installation of the fuel filter when cleaning tank.

 

[jedoga]

Oil bath air filter is clean and all air intake and exhaust is free of debris Sean.

 

[sotxbill]

And a bad fuel cap..not venting and creating a suction.

 

[Destroked 450]

Three things to check on a Ford diesel tractor before you ever pull an injector or injection pump
Fuel coming from the tank, could have a plugged fuel screen or missing screen and plugged fitting
Fuel filter could be stopped up or new one improperly installed
Fuel inlet screen on models with CAV injection pump, this should be last due to the number of small components that can become lost or installed incorrectly

Remove the fuel filter and open the tank valve, see if there s a good flow of fuel coming from the filter base, if not pull the tank valve and check the screen
If the flow is good install a clean filter making sure the sealing rings are in the correct position, if it still won t run properly it s time the check the inlet screen at the back of the pump
I prefer removing the inlet assembly and working on it on a bench or clean tailgate

 

[RodinNS]

Definitely fuel starvation. I usually put a shop vac in the filler neck, remove the tank shutoff/screen, and then let it run out whatever is in there. Mabey you drain the tank... or just the crap. There's something in there. Could be bad filler cap too but more likely crap in the tank floating around.

Rod

 

[showcrop]

My 9000 had a mud block where the return tees into the fuel line.

 

[jedoga]

After my chores, heading over to the owner's place. Overkill coming. Drain and remove tank. Remove shutoff and give the inside a thorough cleaning and inspection before reinstall and refill with fresh fuel. Clean and inspect line to filter and check filter seals. Bleed and try it out. The filler cap gasket is dry rotted but intact and I doubt it could hold a vacuum. This machine seems like it set up for long time and got some paint offered for sale for as long as previous owner cared to try then dropped off at an auction. Some new language being spoken is that people win things at an auction. Play stupid games...

 

[showcrop]

This is just another example of the foolishness in the recommendation often given here to not buy an older tractor unless there is dealer support nearby. Dealers rarely want to see old tractors come in the door because they are a risk of tying up a bay and a mechanic for days and then having to settle for half of their normal labor rate.

 

[Fritz Maurer]

You see any return fuel dribbling in the tank filler neck? Never saw it happen before, but a plugged thermostart system could cause the symptoms you describe. If a CAV pump, you can kill the engine by holding your finger over the return port at the top of the pump.

 

[jedoga]

Old crippled up man at the injection pump rebuilders(probably owner) heard description of issues and mention blockage in return.
Think he was referring to the pump itself. While it ran, I watched the fuel leaking back into the tank at a good constant rate. I
will have to remove that as well to remove the tank so it will get cleaned and inspected as well. Thanks for the heads up.

 

[jedoga]

All professional work(I am not pedigreed) was done at the owner's volition. I am the last resort. People get in touch with me
after they reach the bottom of their mechanical money pit. Going to owner's place to do a lot of cleaning and inspecting after
answering here. From what most of you have stated, it sounds like continuing fuel starvation even after the weeks of shop time and
1600 dollars spent by the owner. Most likely from filth and neglect plus a possible filter installation mistake being the
underlying cause. Many of the people I do work for want pedigrees, guarantees, uniforms, and big work trucks showing up for big
bucks. It gives them a warm fuzzy. They usually poo poo my removing dirt dauber nests(sometimes painted) and cleaning oil soaked
dirt and leaves out of cracks and crevices, etc... just to locate what could be wrong. Will keep all the suggestions and heads up
troubleshooting tips from all of you good guys in mind while meticulously cleaning like a OCD germaphobe housewife. Filth,
neglect, simple mistakes, and sometimes previous dangerous and ridiculous work around rigging jobs are usually the faults.
Machines argue less than their owners. Many thanks to you all, I gotta get over there, I'll holler back after this.

 

[Sean in PA]

(quoted from post at 09:16:01 10/18/22) Old crippled up man at the injection pump rebuilders(probably owner) heard description of issues and mention blockage in return.
Think he was referring to the pump itself. While it ran, I watched the fuel leaking back into the tank at a good constant rate. I
will have to remove that as well to remove the tank so it will get cleaned and inspected as well. Thanks for the heads up.

There is a return line from the pump up to the first injector, and then from the first injector to the next, and so on, and the line from the last injector goes to the tank. The fact they you are seeing fuel return to the tank means that at least the line from the rear most injector to the tank is clear, but there could be blockage anywhere prior to that in the return circuit.

 

[jedoga]

All injectors rebuilt and old soft lines replaced.

 

[jedoga]

Told owner my best guess at why the yechs at F/NH stopped short was like an insurance job. If fixing will cost more than the item itself is worth, then it is "totaled". They deemed it too expensive to fix. I am agreeing with you and adding that people should not buy an older tractor unless they have the wherewithal to work on it themselves. But then I would be out of a low paying part time job. My tools are clean and orderly because I wipe the blood, mud, oil, grease, and grime off of them before stowing them in their proper place.

 

[Keith Williams]

Destroked 450,
I thought it was you that gave the great info on that filter that I never knew was there.

I hope this helps him!
Keith

 

[showcrop]

(quoted from post at 17:23:24 10/18/22) Told owner my best guess at why the yechs at F/NH stopped short was like an insurance job. If fixing will cost more than the item itself is worth, then it is "totaled". They deemed it too expensive to fix. I am agreeing with you and adding that people should not buy an older tractor unless they have the wherewithal to work on it themselves. But then I would be out of a low paying part time job. My tools are clean and orderly because I wipe the blood, mud, oil, grease, and grime off of them before stowing them in their proper place.

Not using dealers does not eliminate buying an old tractor and doing business with honest talented experienced independent mechanics like yourself.

 

[jedoga]

destroked 450
The pump inlet screen at the rear of the pump (Delphi-II). The pump was returned from rebuilder looking as if it were new out
of the box. I almost think they did an exchange with a core charge, but they may actually be that good. Not even a smell of
diesel on the rebuilt unit and a new tag. I will ask owner to get some info from the rebuilder about that pump inlet screen before
removing any components from the pump.

 

[Destroked 450]

Go thru the process of checking fuel flow before doing anything else
Until you determine where the flow is restricted your just wizzing in the wind
Some are saying the return could be the issue
Disconnect the pump return at the first injector and plumb a couple of small hoses from the pump return and injector return into the clear bottle is see if they are both flowing
Shouldn t be much but they should both have some flow

I take the filter off and check flow coming thru the filter base, if hood replace the filter and remove the bleed screw in the top of the base. Check for good flow come out the bleed hole, if hood move to the pump
Take the pump bleed out and crank the engine over with the stop lever pulled, it should squirt fuel out a foot or more

The way I do it is quick and easy but also messy as fuel will run down over the filter base and side of the engine but I figure out quickly what may be the issue
If you don t want the mess take the fuel line loose and flow fuel into a container

 

[jedoga]

Fritz
It is a thermostart and the line from the unit was full of bad fuel. The hardline connects to a "doodad" that I cannot identify by a parts search here or in the shop manual. The doodad is bolted on a bracket forward of fuel tank and has the leak line to the filler neck attached and the leak off line from injectors attached. Doodad had bad fuel in it as well. Removed both thermostart unit and doodad. Thermostart was disconnected and I figure has been clogged and inoperable long before this owner purchased. Will try to get a pic of doodad up later. Gotta process a deer.
Everyone.
Steering wheel came off without a single curse word. Rear cowling of tank off. Got a couple pounds of rust flakes, thick rust sediment and some lighter stuff off the walls. The fuel sensor was swollen with rust and broken. Pressure washed until I could get no more loose stuff out then blasted with a good long airwand scraping at visible flakes. About another pound of crud. It took a while, but the tank is clean. No doubt a contributing factor to the issue.
Remounted the tank after fully dried, reinstalled clean shutoff valve, refilled with fresh fuel, bled filter and pump. No leaks. If owner wants me to get new parts, I will order from here most likely. He may try to get them himself. They usually do.
This machine had to sit for years with a tank full of water to get in this shape. Oh well. Just watching the hydraulic fluid leak all over a drip pad while working on the fuel system.

 

[Destroked 450]

That dodad is a small fuel reservoir the feed fuel to the thermostart
Later models just have the thermostart line teed into the return

 

[jedoga]

FIXED.

Massive filth in tank. OCD cleanout. Thermostart and sending unit still need replaced. Owner wants to order from ebay. Strongly suggested ordering from yesterdaystractors.com. He has previously ordered from another tractor website for a different facepalm problem. Not for this thread. Bottom line, you were all right. Fuel starvation. It is a project tractor, not a working tractor as the owner thought he was buying. Therefore, the dealer is not a restoration specialist and just spitballed what might get it going as quickly as possible. Thank you very much for helping me make it through this. Pounds of garbage cleaned from tank that only reacted when tractor running and demanding fuel. Not running, the fuel would flow from tank just fine. Running and drawing, the heavy particulates clog screen. Road test was classic. Wire pulling the throttle, no hood, no muffler, no instrument cluster, no cowling, rag over sending unit hole, steering wheel slapped on, and going balls to the wall up and down a dirt road. Initial success or total failure. Cheers guys. Wonder what brand of one man's trash I will have to consult with you great guys to make into another man's treasure next. I appreciate you and will check back and return on any comments over a few days, and probably be back when another owner decides to fix up that 76 JD 2040. See ya in the morning.