Electrical issues

[Ramoekal]

I have 1951 Ford 8N

I changed it from 6volt system to 12 volt system. I put In an electronic ignition this worked fine for about 2 1/2 years.

I started it the other day and it ran for about 10 min while I was hooking up a blade on the back. Then it started sputtering died and wouldn't start again.

I checked for spark to plugs . There wasn't any. Instead of back tracking I assumed the the electronic ignition was bad. So I replaced it. Still no spark. Back tracked to coil . Power from ignition was there , no spark coming out. Replaced the coil. Still no spark. Wondered if it was the power wire from ignition. So replaced it. There is spark now to positive side of coil . Still nothing leaving coil to distributor.

Thought maybe ground were bad. In distributor. Took distributer out ,cleaned the base. Then pulled cap cleaned lightly sanded down beneath the electronic ignition Then rehooked up. Still no spark. Changed plug wires . No spark. The only thing I can figure the volts to ammeter , to ignition are messed up. Ballast was illuminated with 12 volt conversion. And coil is internally regulated.

How many volts , amps should be to the positive side of coil? Is my question.

Or am I not seeing the Forrest through the trees and missing something? Thank you soon much for helping if you can.

 

[used red MN]

Hello Ram.., welcome to YT! Number 1 is did you get the correct replacement unit to match your tractors system? I suspect that it is currently a 12 volt negative ground. If you purchased one based on your tractor model it will be for a 6 volt positive ground system. These systems will not work in reverse polarity and over voltage will burn them out. Never leave the ignition on with the engine not running for any length of time, this will destroy the module. Here is a test process in the link. That shows a test for a positive ground system, if you have a negative ground just swap the symbols on the Battery and swap meter leads. If you have a front mount distributor this may be a bit tricky. May have to pull all your spark plugs so you can turn the engine by hand to turn the distributor shaft to rotate the magnet sleeve past the module.
+ ground test process
Edit: I did take for granted that you have a Petronix system.

 

[Jim L WA]

It sounds to me like you don't have a multi meter to check voltages in the circuit. If that's correct, go buy one. They are way cheaper then the cost of all the parts you have thrown at it already. That way you can prove things one way or another, rather than assume a part is bad.

 

[Ramoekal]

When I asked how many volts , amps should there be to the positive side of the coil . That implies I have one.

Too stupid to use it. Maybe. But willing now. If you don't know how many volts or amps. Just say dont know. it's OK. The post before you has me working on it.

 

[Jim.ME]

When I asked how many volts , amps should there be to the positive side of the coil . That implies I have one.

Too stupid to use it. Maybe. But willing now. If you don't know how many volts or amps. Just say dont know. it's OK. The post before you has me working on it.

To go along with used red MN's information.

Front or side mounted distributor?

Positive or negative ground of the battery?

What is the brand and model/part number of the electronic ignition unit you are using?

A twelve-volt coil should have very close to the same voltage going to it as the voltage reads at the battery terminals. Where is your general location in this wide world?

 

[Ramoekal]

Side mounted

12 volt negative ground. Generator pulled Alternator placed in.

Part # 1244A or 8N12127B for Electronic ignition.

When I purchased the coil I told them I needed an internally regulated coil. And that I hadn't had a ballast resister for Last 2-3 years since I did the 12 volt conversion from yesterday's tractor.

I was thinking about contacting Yesterday's tractor and trying to purchase the coil that came with the conversion kit?

Oh and 12 volt makes sense . No resisters between battery ,ignition and coil. Also , I've always had parasitic draws in vehicles . So in the tractor for what ever reason I always disconct the battery when I'm done

And I live on the coast in Oregon. Thank you for your time. I do appreciate it.

 

[Tim PloughNman Daley RIP]

I have 1951 Ford 8N

I changed it from 6volt system to 12 volt system. I put In an electronic ignition this worked fine for about 2 1/2 years.

I started it the other day and it ran for about 10 min while I was hooking up a blade on the back. Then it started sputtering died and wouldn't start again.

I checked for spark to plugs . There wasn't any. Instead of back tracking I assumed the the electronic ignition was bad. So I replaced it. Still no spark. Back tracked to coil . Power from ignition was there , no spark coming out. Replaced the coil. Still no spark. Wondered if it was the power wire from ignition. So replaced it. There is spark now to positive side of coil . Still nothing leaving coil to distributor.

Thought maybe ground were bad. In distributor. Took distributer out ,cleaned the base. Then pulled cap cleaned lightly sanded down beneath the electronic ignition Then rehooked up. Still no spark. Changed plug wires . No spark. The only thing I can figure the volts to ammeter , to ignition are messed up. Ballast was illuminated with 12 volt conversion. And coil is internally regulated.

How many volts , amps should be to the positive side of coil? Is my question.

Or am I not seeing the Forrest through the trees and missing something? Thank you soon much for helping if you can.

OK, forget model year -it means nothing. As others said, is it a front mount or side mount distributor? A 12V battery does not mean you are wired correctly for a 12V conversion. You're guessing - Stop it, rookie/newbie mistake #1. Need root cause problem solving to get answers, not I think I can do this or I think I can do that. Why you went with EI? Was tractor running B4 you changed it out? If a front mount, you can static test the coil. Set your VOM to OHMS. Place one probe on the top coil terminal stud. Polarity doesn't matter. Place other probe on the Pigtail contact on the bottom of coil. You should get a reading of 1.5 OHMS +/- .3 OHMS. If a front mount, you need the OEM BALLAST RESISTOR in the circuit wired correctly. On the back of dash, observe the Resistor and the LH bottom terminal has one wire attached. This is the COIL WIRE CONNECTION and no other wires are attached to it. It runs from the Block terminal thru conduit and harness to the front of tractor where it fastens onto the COIL terminal on top.

Of course all the wiring needs to be verified all correct too. 12V means an ALT with a belt tensioner; GEN and VR are removed; Starter Motor is 3-Wire with a RELAY (SOLENOID); AMMETER on dash.

Ballast was illuminated with 12 volt conversion ---HUH? If you have an external 1.5 OHM resistor that is NOT the OEM BALLAST RESISTOR. SEE PIX. It gets added when you use a 6V with a 12V conversion. Eliminate it by opting for a 12V Coil.

Try this: Measure battery voltage static and note it. Place VOM Probe 1, polarity doesn't matter, on the Resistor Bock LH coil terminal. Place Probe 2 anywhere on metal ground. Turn IGN KEY "ON" but do not turn engine over. Observe VOM will read battery voltage as measured with points open, half that with points closed. If good, then move Probe 1 to the COIL TOP TERMINAL POST and repeat. VOM should read same battery voltage. Passing means coil is getting correct voltage and problem is likely in the distributor. Now since you are using EI, you have no points. So I can't help you with your EI - I don't muck with them.


Tim Daley (MI)

 

[Jim.ME]

OK, forget model year -it means nothing. As others said, is it a front mount or side mount distributor? A 12V battery does not mean you are wired correctly for a 12V conversion. You're guessing - Stop it, rookie/newbie mistake #1. Need root cause problem solving to get answers, not I think I can do this or I think I can do that. Why you went with EI? Was tractor running B4 you changed it out? If a front mount, you can static test the coil. Set your VOM to OHMS. Place one probe on the top coil terminal stud. Polarity doesn't matter. Place other probe on the Pigtail contact on the bottom of coil. You should get a reading of 1.5 OHMS +/- .3 OHMS. If a front mount, you need the OEM BALLAST RESISTOR in the circuit wired correctly. On the back of dash, observe the Resistor and the LH bottom terminal has one wire attached. This is the COIL WIRE CONNECTION and no other wires are attached to it. It runs from the Block terminal thru conduit and harness to the front of tractor where it fastens onto the COIL terminal on top.

Of course all the wiring needs to be verified all correct too. 12V means an ALT with a belt tensioner; GEN and VR are removed; Starter Motor is 3-Wire with a RELAY (SOLENOID); AMMETER on dash.


Try this: Measure battery voltage static and note it. Place VOM Probe 1, polarity doesn't matter, on the Resistor Bock LH coil terminal. Place Probe 2 anywhere on metal ground. Turn IGN KEY "ON" but do not turn engine over. Observe VOM will read battery voltage as measured with points open, half that with points closed. If good, then move Probe 1 to the COIL TOP TERMINAL POST and repeat. VOM should read same battery voltage. Passing means coil is getting correct voltage and problem is likely in the distributor. Now since you are using EI, you have no points. So I can't help you with your EI - I don't muck with them.


Tim Daley (MI)

He might be new here but rookie/newbie mistake? He said he converted it to 12 volts, installed the electronic ignition, and that it had been running fine for about 2-1/2 years. That sounds like a component failure anyone could encounter to me.

He posted it is a side.mount distributor.

I believe ballast illuminated may be a spell check or auto fill error and he meant he eliminated the OEM ballast as Pertronix calls for in their installation instructions.

 

[Eman85]

Just me but usually tractors stop running far from the shop and most tools. If quick checking ignition I'd use a test light. Ignition on light grounded touch the probe to the + side of the coil should light up. Spin the motor with the probe on the - side the light should blink. No blink problem is in the distributor, if it blinks you should have spark from the coil. Spark from the coil but not at the plug wire it's somewhere between the 2 usually cap or rotor.

 

[Jim L WA]

When I asked how many volts , amps should there be to the positive side of the coil . That implies I have one.

Too stupid to use it. Maybe. But willing now. If you don't know how many volts or amps. Just say dont know. it's OK. The post before you has me working on it.

My bad on the question if you had a meter. So, to answer your question, you should have 12 volts on the positive post of the coil assuming the coil is wired correctly, so let's say the post that's wired to the ignition switch. Then if you removed the wire going to the distributor you should have 12 volts or so there too. If you had points, I could tell you what you should see if they were open or closed, but I don't know about the E.I.
Hope you can forgive me and some of the others that don't actually read what you have said.

 

[used red MN]

Just me but usually tractors stop running far from the shop and most tools. If quick checking ignition I'd use a test light. Ignition on light grounded touch the probe to the + side of the coil should light up. Spin the motor with the probe on the - side the light should blink. No blink problem is in the distributor, if it blinks you should have spark from the coil. Spark from the coil but not at the plug wire it's somewhere between the 2 usually cap or rotor.

I don’t have any of these electronic ignitions but I believe what Eman is proposing is a legitimate test. I just can’t find anywhere on the web it is shown. I think from the standpoint of a test the EI provides an on/off to the coil just as points do, so a test light on the negative side of the coil should indicate that is happening as you crank the engine. But the module has to be fed proper voltage to get that. Check your voltage to the coil.
Then do yourself a favor and walk around the tractor and pull the drain plug out of the carb bowl and see what comes out. If nothing you have wasted a bunch of time and money on an ignition that probably never had a problem. A big snot bugger might have got in the gas feed circuit and plugged it up.
Is your alternator a 3 wire or 1 wire?

 

[Ramoekal]

No its my fault. I did throw my wallet at it thinking it would help. And would continue, assuming it would help. But looks like I'm going to be learning from here on out.

So I have an inline spark tester that hooks up to my spark plugs. A DC probe light tester. And voltmeter. Witch I beleive might be faulty. It's not registering the beep for continuity unless the probes are 1/4 inch apart.

I'm on the fence with calling Yesterday's Tractor explaining the situation and just purchasing the coil that came with the original 12 volt conversion. However I'm learning more than I ever knew about this amd DC current. It might be worth going this road for future situations.

 

[JMOR]

No its my fault. I did throw my wallet at it thinking it would help. And would continue, assuming it would help. But looks like I'm going to be learning from here on out.

So I have an inline spark tester that hooks up to my spark plugs. A DC probe light tester. And voltmeter. Witch I beleive might be faulty. It's not registering the beep for continuity unless the probes are 1/4 inch apart.

I'm on the fence with calling Yesterday's Tractor explaining the situation and just purchasing the coil that came with the original 12 volt conversion. However I'm learning more than I ever knew about this amd DC current. It might be worth going this road for future situations.

+12v from ign sw feeds coil+ and 1244 module's red wire. Black wire from 1244 module to coil Neg (signal on this Neg coil terminal & 1244 black wire, will look pretty much the same as you would see with points opening & closing, as magnetic trigger ring rotates, i.e., 12v, Gnd, 12v, Gnd, on and on).

 

[Jim.ME]

No its my fault. I did throw my wallet at it thinking it would help. And would continue, assuming it would help. But looks like I'm going to be learning from here on out.

So I have an inline spark tester that hooks up to my spark plugs. A DC probe light tester. And voltmeter. Witch I beleive might be faulty. It's not registering the beep for continuity unless the probes are 1/4 inch apart.

I'm on the fence with calling Yesterday's Tractor explaining the situation and just purchasing the coil that came with the original 12 volt conversion. However I'm learning more than I ever knew about this amd DC current. It might be worth going this road for future situations.

If you have an Ohmmeter you can check the coil's resistance. Unhook the wires from the coil. With a lead of the ohmmeter on each of the small terminals you need a minimum of 3 ohms resistance according to the 1244A instructions on the Pertronix site.

 

[soaked]

Hi Ramoekal,
My 8n sidemount with 1244a, key on, had either 12.55 or 11.44, on 3.0 ohm coil at the + terminal.
Dropped 1.11 volts when engine rotation caused ignitor to ground the coil.( pryed flywheel with a screwdriver) ( left key on for only 30 seconds)

Did you run suppression plug wires for the 2 1/2 years?

Pertronix spec for ground is less than 0.2 ohms from aluminum ignitor plate, back to battery negative.

 

[Ramoekal]

So what I eventually did was pull all the ignition components from the tractor. I connected them to test the electronic ignition. After setting it up , I found no spark. I then isolated the coil amd tested it . I got spark. Once I knew the coil was good.

For the fun of it. I replaced the new electronic ignition back to the old one. And bam , got spark. So the long story is. The coil was bad and I jumped the gun and assumed it was the electronic ignition. And changed it first without testing.

However the new electronic ignition is bad. Witch I was unaware of. So after purchasing 2 coils and still being stuck. Doing the isolated bench test revealed my stupidity amd taught me a lesson.

1) Test first
2) Don't assume because something is new its good in the case of the electronic ignition. Bad in the cases of the 2 coils
3) And don't just throw the wallet at something. Without testing. Could cost $159 more than needed.

 

[Jim L WA]

Thanks for the update Ramoekal. Your story reminds me of an experience I had years ago on a vehicle.
The car's oil gauge showed very low oil pressure. I wanted to verify that with an actual oil pressure gauge. A guy at work said he had one I could use. I removed the sending unit and hooked up his gauge. No oil pressure! Pulled the engine, replaced the oil pump, put it back in. No oil pressure. Installed a new sending unit and viola, OIL PRESSURE! Then the guy at work told my he had replaced that gauge because he thought it was bad.