2010 Power steering

[Daniel in PA]

Hello, Having a problem with power steering on a 2010 Wheel loader (industrial), go figure, lol. I try not to waste you good peoples time and read as much as I can. I have all the manuals but not sure how to do pressure testing before removing pump or giving up, I have the JD service manual which is not clear, have the I&T which seem better believe it or not but they have you testing pressure under the seat but this unit has a hoe so no PTO or three point so I don’t thing hydraulic fluid flows to the back. I have power steering but weak, pulled the line off the steering valve on have good flow, remove trans lube test plug and have flow so the pump is engaged and turning. New oil and and cleaned filter no help, so I removed filter and tested no change. Any idea’s would be appreciated, I’m looking for the “better way” not in the book. No need mentioning the scrap yard, I have already contemplated that. Thanks
Dan

 

[Fixingfarmer]

Does the hoe work well? Smaller tractor for it so probably no booster pump would be all off the main pump. If it can run that big hoe cylinder that’s an incredibly good way to test hydraulics. How’s the loader? Same answer. If you eliminate a pump taking a poo you can then cap the steering lines up front and lift the wheels off the ground. With steel lines capped can you move the wheels? They should get hard and stop you. If you can move the oil and feel the cylinder moving time to reseal the front...if everything else checks out your looking at steering valve...that’s the way I check if you aren’t going after pressures. If there’s a good schematic in your book check where the feed line goes to the steering valve. There’s a priority valve I believe not too far from the steering you can try that before tearing into the steering valve not the stupidest idea in the world. This process can get you down to one or 2 possibilities instead of throwing all the parts at it. The Hoes they made back then were big you can tell in a hurry if you have a pump or not. My 500 b has a booster where the rock shaft lever is on an ag tractor. That can at least get you going in the right direction. Does yours have accessible remote plug ins for hoses? Mine does not I’m not sure where they intend for you to hook up a flow meter anyway. Just out of curiosity is yours powershift or synchro? Mine is powershift so has never needed that check valve update...

 

[Daniel in PA]

The loader and hoe are run by auxiliary pump on the front so the only thing the main pump does is power steering on trans lube. PC731 page 137 “ rockshaft oil line” I’m assuming it doesn’t have because they is no rockshaft. I have a homemade rig that I can pressure and flow test the steer at the input to the control valve but don’t no what reading I should be looking for. Thanks
Dan

 

[wore out]

Hello, Having a problem with power steering on a 2010 Wheel loader (industrial), go figure, lol. I try not to waste you good peoples time and read as much as I can. I have all the manuals but not sure how to do pressure testing before removing pump or giving up, I have the JD service manual which is not clear, have the I&T which seem better believe it or not but they have you testing pressure under the seat but this unit has a hoe so no PTO or three point so I don’t thing hydraulic fluid flows to the back. I have power steering but weak, pulled the line off the steering valve on have good flow, remove trans lube test plug and have flow so the pump is engaged and turning. New oil and and cleaned filter no help, so I removed filter and tested no change. Any idea’s would be appreciated, I’m looking for the “better way” not in the book. No need mentioning the scrap yard, I have already contemplated that. Thanks
Dan

Is the "hoe" powered by a "stinger pump" driven from the front of the crankshaft?

 

[Daniel in PA]

Yes, not sure of the term “stinger pump” but the loader and hoe pump is on the front with a separate reservoir and is not part of the system that I’m having problem with. Thanks
Dan

 

[Fixingfarmer]

Well that ruins my big plan then. I know on mine it operates without that booster my uncle uses it because he likes to operate it quickly. I often don’t...what you describe however sounds live all the time.

 

[wore out]

Yes, not sure of the term “stinger pump” but the loader and hoe pump is on the front with a separate reservoir and is not part of the system that I’m having problem with. Thanks
Dan

Yes, that is what is often called as "stinger pump".

As to the power steering pressure and flow, 3 - 5 GPM and a pressure in the range of 800 to 1200 PSI would be a WAG.

 

[Daniel in PA]

Yes, that is what is often called as "stinger pump".

As to the power steering pressure and flow, 3 - 5 GPM and a pressure in the range of 800 to 1200 PSI would be a WAG.

I did find something in I&T, it does have some value. See attached. Thanks

 

[Daniel in PA]

Does anyone have a picture of the trans with the top removed, I am trying to figure out where the rockshaft oil line attaches in the front of trans. I have the parts book but doesn’t show it. I don’t think mine has it because no rockshaft on this unit, but there’s no reference to a cap if not used. A photo of any 2010 would work.
Thanks
Dan

 

[wore out]

Does anyone have a picture of the trans with the top removed, I am trying to figure out where the rockshaft oil line attaches in the front of trans. I have the parts book but doesn’t show it. I don’t think mine has it because no rockshaft on this unit, but there’s no reference to a cap if not used. A photo of any 2010 would work.
Thanks
Dan

I don't have a photo for you, but the rockshaft line is fed from a little "block" bolted to the inner front face of the transmission. That "block" is fed with an internal steel line that drops down from the mounting for the hydraulic remote valve(s).

Does your (industrial) 2010 have any "remote hydraulic couplers" and/or hydraulic lever(s) to the left of the steering wheel?

Tractors WITH hydraulic remotes and/or a 3-point hitch and manual steering used a hydraulic pump with only one output.

The versions with power steering used a hydraulic pump with a flow divider and two outputs.

The gears and center sections of the pumps varied with application/flow required.

The power steering feed hose dropped down into the flywheel housing and was fed from the pump's flow divider output port, the remote hydraulics and rockshaft feed was INTERNAL up to the remote valve mounting base.

I am wondering that IF your tractor doesn't have remotes if they may have used a hydraulic pump with no flow divider and fed only the steering from the pump (which would be the opposite of "manual steering" tractors that used a pump with a single output to feed only the remote valves and/or the rockshaft.

If your pump DOES have two outputs I don't think you need to worry about what's going on downstream on the remote valve output side, as the priority flow divider in the pump itself should direct ALL output flow to the steering circuit up to the point that the required flow is met and it begins to direct flow to the other port.

IF your steering flow and pressure are "low", I would suspect an worn pump and/or priority valve issues.

If flow and pressure are in the proper range, something is amiss with the "steering gear" itself.

I hope all this makes sense on is of some help!

 

[Daniel in PA]

I don't have a photo for you, but the rockshaft line is fed from a little "block" bolted to the inner front face of the transmission. That "block" is fed with an internal steel line that drops down from the mounting for the hydraulic remote valve(s).

Does your (industrial) 2010 have any "remote hydraulic couplers" and/or hydraulic lever(s) to the left of the steering wheel?

Tractors WITH hydraulic remotes and/or a 3-point hitch and manual steering used a hydraulic pump with only one output.

The versions with power steering used a hydraulic pump with a flow divider and two outputs.

The gears and center sections of the pumps varied with application/flow required.

The power steering feed hose dropped down into the flywheel housing and was fed from the pump's flow divider output port, the remote hydraulics and rockshaft feed was INTERNAL up to the remote valve mounting base.

I am wondering that IF your tractor doesn't have remotes if they may have used a hydraulic pump with no flow divider and fed only the steering from the pump (which would be the opposite of "manual steering" tractors that used a pump with a single output to feed only the remote valves and/or the rockshaft.

If your pump DOES have two outputs I don't think you need to worry about what's going on downstream on the remote valve output side, as the priority flow divider in the pump itself should direct ALL output flow to the steering circuit up to the point that the required flow is met and it begins to direct flow to the other port.

IF your steering flow and pressure are "low", I would suspect an worn pump and/or priority valve issues.

If flow and pressure are in the proper range, something is amiss with the "steering gear" itself.

I hope all this makes sense on is of some help!

Thanks you in-depth explanation, no remote hydraulic coupler’s either. I can’t test pressure and flow in the power steering circuit yet because I had to order a inverted flare adapter to hook to the line. In the mean time I’m looking into the possibility of and internal leak that the manual suggests could be a cause, that’s why I’m asking about the rockshaft oil line or lack of it. There is no flow schematic that I can find for the pump area. PC731 page 153 shows the remote cylinder Bypass, one either has #4 or #5 my has 5 to blank off ports. I’m trying to figure out which directions the oil flows. I don’t know how to figure out if pump has one or 2 outlets short of pulling it ,and as always best practice is to test before dismantling. Thinking of pulling the bypass block off and tapping npt filling in it to test pump pressure, ironically the older style on page 151 had a plug. My thinking is if the diverter valve is problematic on these machines I could get hydro supply from the port I made in the top of bypass plug, test port/supply port, let’s call it a bit of re-engineering.
Thanks
Dan

 

[wore out]

Thanks you in-depth explanation, no remote hydraulic coupler’s either. I can’t test pressure and flow in the power steering circuit yet because I had to order a inverted flare adapter to hook to the line. In the mean time I’m looking into the possibility of and internal leak that the manual suggests could be a cause, that’s why I’m asking about the rockshaft oil line or lack of it. There is no flow schematic that I can find for the pump area. PC731 page 153 shows the remote cylinder Bypass, one either has #4 or #5 my has 5 to blank off ports. I’m trying to figure out which directions the oil flows. I don’t know how to figure out if pump has one or 2 outlets short of pulling it ,and as always best practice is to test before dismantling. Thinking of pulling the bypass block off and tapping npt filling in it to test pump pressure, ironically the older style on page 151 had a plug. My thinking is if the diverter valve is problematic on these machines I could get hydro supply from the port I made in the top of bypass plug, test port/supply port, let’s call it a bit of re-engineering.
Thanks
Dan

Where does the "feed line" for the power steering come from, as I said in the normal ag tractors it drops down into the flywheel housing and connects directly to the hydraulic pump.

"PC731 page 153 shows the remote cylinder Bypass, one either has #4 or #5 my has 5 to blank off ports."

You have BOTH #4 and #5, #4 passes through the casting, and the block-off/bypass #5 stacks on top of it.

The more frontward vertical oil pipe comes from the pump, and the more rearward line drops down to feed the rockshaft line

You need to find out where the power steering oil is sources from, the area where #4 and #5 are is likely not even involved in the P.S. circuit.

IF it had remote valves, the valve base (#38 or #54) would be mounted in place of #5. (There's some changes by serial number, but the basics are the same.

 

[Daniel in PA]

You are correct the power steering is not involved with the bypass, it comes off the pump as you stated just like the ag tractor. Because I don’t have any of the remote valve assembly I was thinking of tapping the bypass cap for pressure testing the pump and possibly a fluid source. I was thinking if my pressure flow test is not good on the power steering feed but is good at my new tap/test point I could cap the port on the pump for existing PS feed and get it from the port I added, no more problems with the diverter valve then. Your explanations of the bypass cap and were it flows was very helpful in my understanding of oil flow. Thanks
Dan

 

[wore out]

You are correct the power steering is not involved with the bypass, it comes off the pump as you stated just like the ag tractor. Because I don’t have any of the remote valve assembly I was thinking of tapping the bypass cap for pressure testing the pump and possibly a fluid source. I was thinking if my pressure flow test is not good on the power steering feed but is good at my new tap/test point I could cap the port on the pump for existing PS feed and get it from the port I added, no more problems with the diverter valve then. Your explanations of the bypass cap and were it flows was very helpful in my understanding of oil flow. Thanks
Dan

It will be interesting when you get to the bottom of how they sourced P.S. oil on your industrial, no remote valve, no rockshaft tractor!

They couldn't have "capped off" the rockshaft flow as this is an open-center system, and it seems odd that it would have just dumped into the transmission. Of course, they were dumping a small flow for tranny lube through the lube regulating valve.

 

[Daniel in PA]

As for oil flow I found this. See attached. In relation to selective control valve and rockshaft feed if it had these I think it would either (1)tee in the front cover, one going to the select valve and one going to the rockshaft and with both in neutral they would dump, (2) or they daisy chain but one would have priority over the other, not sure that would work. Wouldn’t (1) be kinda like power beyond? Thanks
Dan

 

[Daniel in PA]

One other thing I should have started is the year which I don’t know, serial plate is gone. I do know from comparing lots of things in the parts book that it’s at least a 42001, so it’s at least a 1963. There was a lot of changes after 42001.
Dan

 

[Daniel in PA]

Update. I have pressure and flow tested the input feed line to the power steering controller with dismal results. The book called for 2.25 to 2.45 gpm restricted to 1000 psi. Before I tried a restricted reading I closed the valve to dead head the circuit and only got 500 psi. The next step is to test the main pump output. The only way to test that because it doesn’t have rockshaft or remote outputs is to make an adapter with a fitting to bolt to where the remote bypass adapter is to get flow and pressure. I’m sure I will be pulling pump but trying to test what I can before removal.

 

[Daniel in PA]

Update: With this adapter I made I was able to test the main hydraulic restricted flow and it was satisfactory. After restricting at least a dozen times I turned the steering wheel and had improvement, but still not stellar, my guess in because the main flow has always been open circuit and never loaded the divider valve is stuck and loading the main circuit helped moving that valve some. My plan is to remove the pump and inspect/clean the divider and relief valve. I understand that the pump can be removed without a split through the bottom. After looking in the bottom hole I was wondering if the clutch shaft that crosses under the pump at the bottom of the housing need to come out?
Thanks Dan