424d Generator and VR test and question

[Steiner]

Hello.

I am working on my father's old International 424d. It has not had a charging system for many years. It's just been kept on a charger and from time to time he'd leave the key on which would kill the battery.

Recently I added and led indicator for the key switch and a keyed relay so the lights (newly installed led all around) would require the key on to function. With the key off tractor running or not they turned off (before going to work on the charging system)

He had the generator rebuilt recently and I put a new voltage regulator on it.

VOLTAGE REGULATOR

Regulator, 12 volt. Flat mount, 3 terminals. For tractors with generators. Replaces Delco regulator 1119000, 1119000, 35A5137.

qualityfarmsupply.com

I think the regulator is bad but would like some input.

Following the excellent info here:

Farmall C charging system will not work

I have a !951 Farmall C that I can't get the charging system to work on. I have had the generator rebuilt and put it back on. I worked for a week trying to get the system to work. I finally gave up tooke the generator and the regulator to a shop that could check both. I did have a problem with...

forums.yesterdaystractors.com

No ammeter, just charge bulb which has been replaced and goes out after start. With the tractor running the led key switch indicator now stays lit and the keyed relay stays on even with the key off now which means it's now getting power from the generator through the dash wiring.

Tractor running
F terminal 5-6V
A terminal 13.50V
Batt terminal 12.06V (matches battery)

If I ground the F terminal
A terminal 12.25V
Batt terminal 12.25V
And both will gradually climb to 12.45V in a minute or two even if the ground is removed from the F terminal. I know the battery is low and the generator is going to max output which pulls it down. I haven't let it just run to see if it would charge up the battery.

It seems there's only output on the batt terminal with the F terminal grounded, and the A and Batt terminals match voltage even after the F terminal is ungrounded. Shut the tractor off and it goes back to battery voltage on the batt terminal and good 13.2 or higher voltage on the A terminal until the F terminal is grounded again.

So...bad VR?

Thank you.

 

[Janicholson]

Hello.

I am working on my father's old International 424d. It has not had a charging system for many years. It's just been kept on a charger and from time to time he'd leave the key on which would kill the battery.

Recently I added and led indicator for the key switch and a keyed relay so the lights (newly installed led all around) would require the key on to function. With the key off tractor running or not they turned off (before going to work on the charging system)

He had the generator rebuilt recently and I put a new voltage regulator on it.

VOLTAGE REGULATOR

Regulator, 12 volt. Flat mount, 3 terminals. For tractors with generators. Replaces Delco regulator 1119000, 1119000, 35A5137.

qualityfarmsupply.com

I think the regulator is bad but would like some input.

Following the excellent info here:

Farmall C charging system will not work

I have a !951 Farmall C that I can't get the charging system to work on. I have had the generator rebuilt and put it back on. I worked for a week trying to get the system to work. I finally gave up tooke the generator and the regulator to a shop that could check both. I did have a problem with...

forums.yesterdaystractors.com

No ammeter, just charge bulb which has been replaced and goes out after start. With the tractor running the led key switch indicator now stays lit and the keyed relay stays on even with the key off now which means it's now getting power from the generator through the dash wiring.

Tractor running
F terminal 5-6V
A terminal 13.50V
Batt terminal 12.06V (matches battery)

If I ground the F terminal
A terminal 12.25V
Batt terminal 12.25V
And both will gradually climb to 12.45V in a minute or two even if the ground is removed from the F terminal. I know the battery is low and the generator is going to max output which pulls it down. I haven't let it just run to see if it would charge up the battery.

It seems there's only output on the batt terminal with the F terminal grounded, and the A and Batt terminals match voltage even after the F terminal is ungrounded. Shut the tractor off and it goes back to battery voltage on the batt terminal and good 13.2 or higher voltage on the A terminal until the F terminal is grounded again.

So...bad VR?

Thank you.

The fact that it is a diesel makes the key switch off while running correct. There should be no reason (or connection) for the lighting relay to stay on through dash wiring. that needs to be an isolated circuit to get Key on power.
(assuming the VR wires are connected to the correct terminals, and assuming the tractor battery is in need of more charge, the F terminal should show near zero volts (to ground). The circuit should ground the field. But if you are using a modest to cheap digital Volt meter you will get very wrong changing information from the meter's sampling rate. a good digital meter with DC averaging, or an analog (needle on scale) meter (even modest price) will do much better. A generator/regulator makes nasty electricity wave form with spurious spikes and dropouts.

The VR A terminal with 13.5 is what would be expected. The 12.06 is not. The voltage at the Bat terminal should be exactly the same as the A terminal when running/charging.
Beyond the volt meter question, make sure the generator is not a Lucas design as that might require a different regulator! Jim

 

[wore out]

Hello.

I am working on my father's old International 424d. It has not had a charging system for many years. It's just been kept on a charger and from time to time he'd leave the key on which would kill the battery.

Recently I added and led indicator for the key switch and a keyed relay so the lights (newly installed led all around) would require the key on to function. With the key off tractor running or not they turned off (before going to work on the charging system)

He had the generator rebuilt recently and I put a new voltage regulator on it.

VOLTAGE REGULATOR

Regulator, 12 volt. Flat mount, 3 terminals. For tractors with generators. Replaces Delco regulator 1119000, 1119000, 35A5137.

qualityfarmsupply.com

I think the regulator is bad but would like some input.

Following the excellent info here:

Farmall C charging system will not work

I have a !951 Farmall C that I can't get the charging system to work on. I have had the generator rebuilt and put it back on. I worked for a week trying to get the system to work. I finally gave up tooke the generator and the regulator to a shop that could check both. I did have a problem with...

forums.yesterdaystractors.com

No ammeter, just charge bulb which has been replaced and goes out after start. With the tractor running the led key switch indicator now stays lit and the keyed relay stays on even with the key off now which means it's now getting power from the generator through the dash wiring.

Tractor running
F terminal 5-6V
A terminal 13.50V
Batt terminal 12.06V (matches battery)

If I ground the F terminal
A terminal 12.25V
Batt terminal 12.25V
And both will gradually climb to 12.45V in a minute or two even if the ground is removed from the F terminal. I know the battery is low and the generator is going to max output which pulls it down. I haven't let it just run to see if it would charge up the battery.

It seems there's only output on the batt terminal with the F terminal grounded, and the A and Batt terminals match voltage even after the F terminal is ungrounded. Shut the tractor off and it goes back to battery voltage on the batt terminal and good 13.2 or higher voltage on the A terminal until the F terminal is grounded again.

So...bad VR?

Thank you.

I have a 424 Diesel so I am familiar with what you are working with. Be SURE the generator belt is tight enough and not bottoming in the pulleys causing slip.

https://cdn.compknowhow.com/carterandgruenewald/wiring_diagrams/IH 424-2424.pdf

Wiring diagram link.

A sticking cutout relay inside the voltage regulator can cause the battery to drain and the generator and VR to be HOT after shutdown, but wouldn't cause the "power feedback" to your dashboard components after shutdown that you are seeing, I have to think you have mis-wired your auxiliary relay.

As to it not closing the cutout (inside the VR) and charging, is the VR well grounded, not insulated by paint or rust on the mounting area?

I would hurt to at least temporarily run a ground jumper wire between the generator and the voltage regulator.

 

[Steiner]

Thank you for the replies.

Regarding the key on indicator and relay I added, they do cycle on and off with the key when the tractor is not running. When the tractor is running, they stay on regardless of key setting. I tied in to the "dead" side of the key switch that provides power to the pushbutton. Somehow, it's getting voltage from the armature I believe. My uncle had "worked on it" over the years and my dad complained about him messing about everything up.

I've checked grounds at the VR and generator, and cleaned off the generator mount. They read 0 to ground. They repainted the original Delco generator when it was rebuilt so I wire brushed the forward lower mounting point and bracket. I also hooked jumper cables from the VR back plate to battery negative without a change.

The only time I get the batt and A terminal to match is by manually jumping the F terminal to ground. Once it's removed, the two continue to match and rise in voltage but I think at 12.1v the battery is low enough that the generator is getting pulled down when doing that since both drop to 12.25v and then gradually rise....the A terminal drops down and the batt terminal comes up so they match.

Edit: looking at the drawings, it makes sense that the led and relay stay on now. The generator dash light is connected to the key on one side and the A terminal on the other side. So, the dead side of the key is being energized with the tractor running through the generator bulb. I had put that in to keep him from leaving the key on back when the generator was disconnected.

 

[Janicholson]

Thank you for the replies.

Regarding the key on indicator and relay I added, they do cycle on and off with the key when the tractor is not running. When the tractor is running, they stay on regardless of key setting. I tied in to the "dead" side of the key switch that provides power to the pushbutton. Somehow, it's getting voltage from the armature I believe. My uncle had "worked on it" over the years and my dad complained about him messing about everything up.

I've checked grounds at the VR and generator, and cleaned off the generator mount. They read 0 to ground. They repainted the original Delco generator when it was rebuilt so I wire brushed the forward lower mounting point and bracket. I also hooked jumper cables from the VR back plate to battery negative without a change.

The only time I get the batt and A terminal to match is by manually jumping the F terminal to ground. Once it's removed, the two continue to match and rise in voltage but I think at 12.1v the battery is low enough that the generator is getting pulled down when doing that since both drop to 12.25v and then gradually rise....the A terminal drops down and the batt terminal comes up so they match.

Edit: looking at the drawings, it makes sense that the led and relay stay on now. The generator dash light is connected to the key on one side and the A terminal on the other side. So, the dead side of the key is being energized with the tractor running through the generator bulb. I had put that in to keep him from leaving the key on back when the generator was disconnected.

A partially charged battery is a difficult component to assess an electrical system. If the battery is good, and newish charge it then tell us your outputs. What meter are you using? It is important. Jim

 

[Janicholson]

I further believe your VR might be at fault. The cutout should close when started. the grounding of the F terminal is what the voltage regulator field circuit does. If it reads a resistance with the wire off, engine stopped, that VR is no good. Jim

 

[Steiner]

I further believe your VR might be at fault. The cutout should close when started. the grounding of the F terminal is what the voltage regulator field circuit does. If it reads a resistance with the wire off, engine stopped, that VR is no good. Jim

With the field wire removed, where should I measure for resistance? Thanks.

Just an FYI, we live six hours apart. I'm down for his 88th birthday today. He laid some rows with it today and I planted his peas and okra.

Just now I disconnected the things I added for the lights. I had put a charger on the battery so it was up to about 12.4v. Same thing as first post....just battery voltage on the batt terminal when running. Gen light goes out after revving up and have over 13v on gen terminal. Ground field terminal and Batt terminal jumps to 12.7v and generator terminal drops down to 12.7v. Field voltage is at 6v then when grounded it drops down to around 0.5v even once the ground is removed. I get 0 ohms VR case to negative and same generator case to frame/body. Also when I ground the field terminal I'm grounding it to the case.

Battery is new and strong even at 12.1v. It's warm enough in south GA right now it doesn't even need starting fluid. The meter is not a Fluke but it is sufficient for this.

 

[Janicholson]

With the field wire removed, where should I measure for resistance? Thanks.

Just an FYI, we live six hours apart. I'm down for his 88th birthday today. He laid some rows with it today and I planted his peas and okra.

Just now I disconnected the things I added for the lights. I had put a charger on the battery so it was up to about 12.4v. Same thing as first post....just battery voltage on the batt terminal when running. Gen light goes out after revving up and have over 13v on gen terminal. Ground field terminal and Batt terminal jumps to 12.7v and generator terminal drops down to 12.7v. Field voltage is at 6v then when grounded it drops down to around 0.5v even once the ground is removed. I get 0 ohms VR case to negative and same generator case to frame/body. Also when I ground the field terminal I'm grounding it to the case.

Battery is new and strong even at 12.1v. It's warm enough in south GA right now it doesn't even need starting fluid. The meter is not a Fluke but it is sufficient for this.

From the field terminal to ground. The battery needs to measure 12.7 volts just after taking it off the charger, and 12.6 there after. An analog meter from Harbor freight is cheap. they work for this. Put your meter on a running car battery and see if it reads 14.2 volts or so 14.7 is not uncommon. If the meter is correct, and the battery is new, it needs charged to do the testing correctly. Running for an hour or two doing field work should have had it up to 12.6. (I have seen 3 bad new batteries). The fact that it will not pull in the cutout relay when started is an issue that poiunts to the regulator. NAPA and others have VRs made in the USA. they are often the solution.
Charge the battery test the meter accuracy and post back. Where do you live in relationship to St. Cloud? Jim

 

[Steiner]

From the field terminal to ground. The battery needs to measure 12.7 volts just after taking it off the charger, and 12.6 there after. An analog meter from Harbor freight is cheap. they work for this. Put your meter on a running car battery and see if it reads 14.2 volts or so 14.7 is not uncommon. If the meter is correct, and the battery is new, it needs charged to do the testing correctly. Running for an hour or two doing field work should have had it up to 12.6. (I have seen 3 bad new batteries). The fact that it will not pull in the cutout relay when started is an issue that poiunts to the regulator. NAPA and others have VRs made in the USA. they are often the solution.
Charge the battery test the meter accuracy and post back. Where do you live in relationship to St. Cloud? Jim

Thanks. Just for back ground I have an EET and used to work commissioning power plant equipment and automation, now just work in maintenance in an automated warehouse to get off the road. That's not to say I know what I'm doing exactly all the time but that I am experienced with using a meter and electrical work...just saying for background as I know all levels of people get help so sometimes you may not know capabilities and have to tailor info accordingly.

The field terminal with wire removed climbs from zero to 1.2 ohm to ground probably because of it's a coil the auto range meter is charging the coil a bit.

Just now I did another run....

Started tractor and jumped field to ground.
Field went from 6 to 0.6.
Battery went from 12.45 to 12.65.
Generator went from 13.2 to 12.7
Let it run for several minutes and both went up about another .25v.

Throttled tractor all the way down so the generator dropped way down.
The battery dropped down to 12.5v.
Revved so the generator came back over 13v.
Battery stayed at 12.5 and field back at 6v.

Dad lives on the other side, Mitchell County.

 

[Janicholson]

Thanks. Just for back ground I have an EET and used to work commissioning power plant equipment and automation, now just work in maintenance in an automated warehouse to get off the road. That's not to say I know what I'm doing exactly all the time but that I am experienced with using a meter and electrical work...just saying for background as I know all levels of people get help so sometimes you may not know capabilities and have to tailor info accordingly.

The field terminal with wire removed climbs from zero to 1.2 ohm to ground probably because of it's a coil the auto range meter is charging the coil a bit.

Just now I did another run....

Started tractor and jumped field to ground.
Field went from 6 to 0.6.
Battery went from 12.45 to 12.65.
Generator went from 13.2 to 12.7
Let it run for several minutes and both went up about another .25v.

Throttled tractor all the way down so the generator dropped way down.
The battery dropped down to 12.5v.
Revved so the generator came back over 13v.
Battery stayed at 12.5 and field back at 6v.

Dad lives on the other side, Mitchell County.

The coil on the VR terminal is not connected to the points of the VR at all. it is in parallel with the Arm terminal and ground. The points are grounded on one contact, and attached to the F terminal on the other. As voltage rises in the coil above the pull in voltage of the cutout, the voltage continues to rise until the charging voltage condition is met, then the contacts are pulled apart, vibrating such that the field current is chopped into bits whos on length determines the total current through the field. There should be no resistance through the points. Remember the very small load (impedance) placed on an open circuit, with today's ohm meters, read things that are not there under load. The field circuit should read zero ohms when not running and zero until operating with rated output. Measuring the operating Voltage at the F terminal is not a standard measurement. And kinda meaningless. It is also wildly fluctuating spike infested flow of electrons. Thes devoces were invented in the 1920s and have not progressed. I have a 200.00 Snapon generator/alternator testor that is analog for that reason. It is not new. Jim

 

[Steiner]

What would be a regulator I could try instead of one like I linked and bought from the farm supply place? VR 650? I'm leaving Monday and probably won't be back until fall.

 

[Steiner]

As long as I can remember he's had to put a charger on it, and I'm 48. Last year he got a wild hair and wanted to get the busted out lights working so I put in hi/lo LEDs, a switch for them, new led amber flasher, and led red rear light. I told him if he's going to have lights he needed to get the charging system working. I wanted to put a one wire alternator on it but he wanted to keep the generator. I should've held him down and tickled him until he gave up but even though he can't walk on his own I think his upper body might still be stronger than me.

 

[Janicholson]

What would be a regulator I could try instead of one like I linked and bought from the farm supply place? VR 650? I'm leaving Monday and probably won't be back until fall.

NAPA VR
The one in the link (blue) is an example, not the specific one needed. Suitability must include the battery polarity as is, the generator number, from the oval plate, and the "A" type generator circuit. The A circuit has a vr that grounds the field circuit. the "B" circuit provides voltage to a grounded field. Way different. Echlin is a good product. Jim

 

[Steiner]

Thanks for the help. My wife works for a company that is part of the NAPA Parts Group so she can get discounted parts. I'm hanging it up for now. Spent too much of my limited visiting time on the tractor and Mom's '93 Fleetwood that left her stranded and has been sitting waiting for a month. Was supposed to put shocks on the '85 F150 as well. Maybe after church tomorrow....

We got the garden planted and that was what he was most worried about getting done.

 

[Janicholson]

Thanks for the help. My wife works for a company that is part of the NAPA Parts Group so she can get discounted parts. I'm hanging it up for now. Spent too much of my limited visiting time on the tractor and Mom's '93 Fleetwood that left her stranded and has been sitting waiting for a month. Was supposed to put shocks on the '85 F150 as well. Maybe after church tomorrow....

We got the garden planted and that was what he was most worried about getting done.

I also end up doing differed maintenance on everything when I visit a relative. (with the exception of my sons inlaws which are farmers and very competent. I help them some, but they are fine and dandy. Best of luck. Jim

 

[Steiner]

An uneventful update:
After church and covered dish lunch, decided to do one more thing.

Wire brushed two spots on the generator case (front lower mount ear and one of the end plate bolts) and ran 12awg wire from front bolt to rear bolt to VR upper ear (opposite original ground strap) and then to battery negative. Redid a couple of the terminals and cleaned the dichromate off the VR lugs. Checked the contacts and springs on the field and armature coils. Battery was on a charger overnight and at 12.65V.

Started up and went to half throttle.
Batt lug 12.65V
Turned on lights, 12.61v
Generator 13.25v
Revved up to 3/4, generator went to 13.45v.
Battery still 12.61v

Touched ground (VR case) to field terminal.
Batt lug 12.80v
Generator 12.95v

After a few minutes
Batt lug 13.25v
Generator 13.4v

Shut down and restarted and it went back like first start.

 

[John T]

Im here late but you may try working step by step through my Charging Troubleshooting Procedure it can helps find the cause of non charging and if its caused by the Generator or Voltage Regulator or something else ON A CLASS A CHARGING SYSTEM

John T ? Where is your electrical troubleshooting guide

Want to make sure I have the "latest" verson. Thanks, jC

www.yesterdaystractors.com

Look it over

John T

 

[Janicholson]

An uneventful update:
After church and covered dish lunch, decided to do one more thing.

Wire brushed two spots on the generator case (front lower mount ear and one of the end plate bolts) and ran 12awg wire from front bolt to rear bolt to VR upper ear (opposite original ground strap) and then to battery negative. Redid a couple of the terminals and cleaned the dichromate off the VR lugs. Checked the contacts and springs on the field and armature coils. Battery was on a charger overnight and at 12.65V.

Started up and went to half throttle.
Batt lug 12.65V
Turned on lights, 12.61v
Generator 13.25v
Revved up to 3/4, generator went to 13.45v.
Battery still 12.61v

Touched ground (VR case) to field terminal.
Batt lug 12.80v
Generator 12.95v

After a few minutes
Batt lug 13.25v
Generator 13.4v

Shut down and restarted and it went back like first start.

I believe the regulator will not ground the field enough to pull in the cutout. Gotta be the regulator. Jim

 

[Steiner]

Im here late but you may try working step by step through my Charging Troubleshooting Procedure it can helps find the cause of non charging and if its caused by the Generator or Voltage Regulator or something else ON A CLASS A CHARGING SYSTEM

John T ? Where is your electrical troubleshooting guide

Want to make sure I have the "latest" verson. Thanks, jC

www.yesterdaystractors.com

Look it over

John T

Thank you. I linked a thread in the first post that had your guide in it. That's where I started.

 

[John T]

Thank you. I linked a thread in the first post that had your guide in it. That's where I started.

If the genny s FLD post is dead grounded and the VR’s cutout relay is by passed jumped around and she still don’t charge the genny must not be working. If it charges if you dead ground the genny FLD post but not otherwise the vr is bad or not well grounded. Usually if it passes BOTH my motor tests the genny itself is okay so non charging may be a vr or vr not grounded issue.
John T